Re: [alsa-devel] DSD over HDMI: audio data packetization
06.01.2015, 06:33, Andrej Falout kirjoitti:
Hi Anssi,
Hi,
Just wondering how Microsoft documentation fits into this discussion:
"Representing Formats for IEC 61937 Transmissions"
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd316761%28v=vs.85%2...
"Microsoft-provided HD Audio class driver supports PCM, AC3, DTS, AAC, Dolby Digital Plus, WMA Pro, MAT(MLP) formats. The GUIDs for the compressed audio formats that are not supported by the HD audio class driver and can be implemented by third-party solutions are listed in the following table. "
CEA 861 Type SubFormat GUID Description 0x08
00000008-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71
KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_ATRAC
Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding (ATRAC) 0x09
00000009-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71
KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_ONE_BIT_AUDIO
One-Bit Audio 0x0d
0000000d-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71
KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_DST
Direct Stream Transport (DST)—lossless compressed DSD (Direct Stream Digital).
And knowing that IEC 61937 from HDMI 1.3 also supports above 6.144 Mbps...
Is there a doubt that above information is correct, and that DST/DST can be carried over 61937 in Microsoft HDA class driver, in this example, by "implementing a third-party solution" as described in this table?
I think the One-Bit Audio and DST formats are just misnamed here and can't be carried over IEC 61937 (ATRAC can be) - the IEC 61937 specification does not cover One-Bit Audio or DST.
I think the "third-party solution" refers to a driver implementing support for a non-HDA-spec HW feature which allows One-Bit audio / DST / raw packets to be transmitted (in a similar way "EPT" (Encoded Packet Type field in Pin Widget Control 7.3.3.13) allows setting HBR or ASP packet transmission).
Thanks, Andrej Falout
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Anssi Hannula <anssi.hannula@iki.fi mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi> wrote:
04.01.2015, 05:10, Xuebing Wang kirjoitti: > Anssi, Libin, > > Thanks for your help. > > After a little bit of research, I do think it is possible to stream DSD > over HDMI (the mechanism is as Anssi mentioned, similar way as HBR). > > Please see HDA spec: > 3.7.1 Stream Format Structure > (If the TYPE is set to Non-PCM, the controller just pushes data over the > link and is not concerned > with formatting. The base rate, data type, and number of Words (MULT) to > send each valid frame > are specified to control the rate at which the non-PCM data is sent.) > > 7.3.3.8 Converter Format > > What do you think? In order to implement this similiar mechanism > (similar to HBR), I still have some detailed questions that I will write > in another email. Thanks. That setting will still not allow you to send One-bit audio or DST packets. The stream will still be encapsulated in either ASP or HBR packets, depending on the value of the EPT field (Encoded Packet Type, 7.3.3.13). > > On Thu, 2015-01-01 at 06:37 +0200, Anssi Hannula wrote: >> 01.01.2015, 04:07, Yang, Libin kirjoitti: >>> Hi, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Anssi Hannula [mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi <mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi>] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 11:45 PM >>>> To: Xuebing Wang >>>> Cc: Yang, Libin; alsa-devel@alsa-project.org <mailto:alsa-devel@alsa-project.org>; Lin, Mengdong; ; Takashi Iwai; ; >>>> Wu Fengguang >>>> Subject: Re: [alsa-devel] DSD over HDMI: audio data packetization >>>> >>>> 31.12.2014, 17:38, Xuebing Wang kirjoitti: >>>>> Anssi, Libin, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you very much for your help. >>>>> >>>>> If L-PCM audio data packetization is done by hardware, is it possible >>>>> to implement DSD over HDMI on Intel integrated graphics? Thanks again. >>>> >>>> I don't think so, unless: >>>> >>>> (a) It is possible to somehow encapsulate the stream in Audio Sample >>>> Packets and be accepted by the receiver (like e.g. AC3, DTS). I'm not aware of >>>> such a way. >>>> >>>> or: >>>> (b) There is some undocumented feature in the Intel HDMI codecs allowing >>>> the driver to switch to DSD or driver-constructed packets (instead of >>>> ASP) in similar way as there is a way to switch to HBR packets. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, I agree. And I'm not sure whether HDMI spec supports DSD. >> >> It does, via the "One Bit Audio" and "DST" formats (spec 5.3.9, 5.3.10 >> in 1.3a/1.4a). > > -- Anssi Hannula
Hi Anssi,
I think the One-Bit Audio and DST formats are just misnamed here and
can't be carried over IEC 61937 (ATRAC can be) - the IEC 61937 specification does not cover One-Bit Audio or DST.
Does it have to be? Given that it is defined in CEA 861, and that 61937-1 makes specific provisions for non-PCM data:
Page 16:
"In cases where the interface is used to convey non-linear PCM audio bitstreams..."
I think the "third-party solution" refers to a driver implementing support for a non-HDA-spec HW feature which allows One-Bit audio / DST / raw packets to be transmitted (in a similar way "EPT" (Encoded Packet Type field in Pin Widget Control 7.3.3.13) allows setting HBR or ASP packet transmission).
Why would an "HW feature" be required to "allows One-Bit audio / DST / raw packets to be transmitted"?
What would such "HW feature" do? What could it possibly do?
Thanks, Andrej Falout
Thanks, Andrej Falout
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Anssi Hannula <anssi.hannula@iki.fi mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi> wrote:
04.01.2015, 05:10, Xuebing Wang kirjoitti: > Anssi, Libin, > > Thanks for your help. > > After a little bit of research, I do think it is possible tostream DSD
> over HDMI (the mechanism is as Anssi mentioned, similar way asHBR).
> > Please see HDA spec: > 3.7.1 Stream Format Structure > (If the TYPE is set to Non-PCM, the controller just pushes dataover the
> link and is not concerned > with formatting. The base rate, data type, and number of Words(MULT) to
> send each valid frame > are specified to control the rate at which the non-PCM data issent.)
> > 7.3.3.8 Converter Format > > What do you think? In order to implement this similiar mechanism > (similar to HBR), I still have some detailed questions that I willwrite
> in another email. Thanks. That setting will still not allow you to send One-bit audio or DST packets. The stream will still be encapsulated in either ASP or HBR packets, depending on the value of the EPT field (Encoded PacketType,
7.3.3.13). > > On Thu, 2015-01-01 at 06:37 +0200, Anssi Hannula wrote: >> 01.01.2015, 04:07, Yang, Libin kirjoitti: >>> Hi, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Anssi Hannula [mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi <mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi>] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 11:45 PM >>>> To: Xuebing Wang >>>> Cc: Yang, Libin; alsa-devel@alsa-project.org <mailto:alsa-devel@alsa-project.org>; Lin, Mengdong; ; TakashiIwai; ;
>>>> Wu Fengguang >>>> Subject: Re: [alsa-devel] DSD over HDMI: audio datapacketization
>>>> >>>> 31.12.2014, 17:38, Xuebing Wang kirjoitti: >>>>> Anssi, Libin, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you very much for your help. >>>>> >>>>> If L-PCM audio data packetization is done by hardware, is it possible >>>>> to implement DSD over HDMI on Intel integrated graphics? Thanks again. >>>> >>>> I don't think so, unless: >>>> >>>> (a) It is possible to somehow encapsulate the stream in Audio Sample >>>> Packets and be accepted by the receiver (like e.g. AC3, DTS). I'm not aware of >>>> such a way. >>>> >>>> or: >>>> (b) There is some undocumented feature in the Intel HDMI codecs allowing >>>> the driver to switch to DSD or driver-constructed packets (instead of >>>> ASP) in similar way as there is a way to switch to HBR packets. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, I agree. And I'm not sure whether HDMI spec supports DSD. >> >> It does, via the "One Bit Audio" and "DST" formats (spec 5.3.9, 5.3.10 >> in 1.3a/1.4a). > > -- Anssi Hannula-- Anssi Hannula
06.01.2015, 08:15, Andrej Falout kirjoitti:
Hi Anssi,
Hi,
I think the One-Bit Audio and DST formats are just misnamed here and can't be carried over IEC 61937 (ATRAC can be) - the IEC 61937 specification does not cover One-Bit Audio or DST.
Does it have to be? Given that it is defined in CEA 861, and that 61937-1 makes specific provisions for non-PCM data:
Page 16:
"In cases where the interface is used to convey non-linear PCM audio bitstreams..."
IEC 61937 *is* about transmitting non-PCM data. The specification specifies how to encapsulate AC-3, MPEG-x, DTS, ATRAC, WMA etc for transmission over IEC 60958 link. It does not specify anything about One-Bit Audio or DST (see e.g. "Table 2 - Data-types" in IEC 61937-2 for a list of supported types of which you need to select one).
I think the "third-party solution" refers to a driver implementing support for a non-HDA-spec HW feature which allows One-Bit audio / DST / raw packets to be transmitted (in a similar way "EPT" (Encoded Packet Type field in Pin Widget Control 7.3.3.13) allows setting HBR or ASP packet transmission).
Why would an "HW feature" be required to "allows One-Bit audio / DST / raw packets to be transmitted"?
What would such "HW feature" do? What could it possibly do?
It would allow transmission of One Bit Audio Sample Packets (HDMI spec 1.3a 5.3.9) or DST Audio Packets (HDMI spec 5.3.10), which is not possible with HW that simply implements HDA specification. The HDA specification only supports transmission of Audio Sample Packets (HDMI spec 5.3.4) and High-Bitrate Audio Stream Packets (HDMI spec 5.3.11), selectable via the EPT field (HDA spec 7.3.3.13). The packet header (which e.g. identifies the packet type) is generated by HW on HDA cards.
Uncompressed PCM is transmitted using ASP packets. IEC 61937 is transmitted using ASP packets (<=6.144Mbps) or HBR packets (>6.144Mbps).
Thanks, Andrej Falout
Thanks, Andrej Falout
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Anssi Hannula <anssi.hannula@iki.fi mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi> wrote:
04.01.2015, 05:10, Xuebing Wang kirjoitti: > Anssi, Libin, > > Thanks for your help. > > After a little bit of research, I do think it is possible tostream DSD
> over HDMI (the mechanism is as Anssi mentioned, similar way asHBR).
> > Please see HDA spec: > 3.7.1 Stream Format Structure > (If the TYPE is set to Non-PCM, the controller just pushes dataover the
> link and is not concerned > with formatting. The base rate, data type, and number of Words(MULT) to
> send each valid frame > are specified to control the rate at which the non-PCM data issent.)
> > 7.3.3.8 Converter Format > > What do you think? In order to implement this similiar mechanism > (similar to HBR), I still have some detailed questions that I willwrite
> in another email. Thanks. That setting will still not allow you to send One-bit audio or DST packets. The stream will still be encapsulated in either ASP or HBR packets, depending on the value of the EPT field (Encoded PacketType,
7.3.3.13). > > On Thu, 2015-01-01 at 06:37 +0200, Anssi Hannula wrote: >> 01.01.2015, 04:07, Yang, Libin kirjoitti: >>> Hi, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Anssi Hannula [mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi <mailto:anssi.hannula@iki.fi>] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2014 11:45 PM >>>> To: Xuebing Wang >>>> Cc: Yang, Libin; alsa-devel@alsa-project.org <mailto:alsa-devel@alsa-project.org>; Lin, Mengdong; ; TakashiIwai; ;
>>>> Wu Fengguang >>>> Subject: Re: [alsa-devel] DSD over HDMI: audio datapacketization
>>>> >>>> 31.12.2014, 17:38, Xuebing Wang kirjoitti: >>>>> Anssi, Libin, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you very much for your help. >>>>> >>>>> If L-PCM audio data packetization is done by hardware, is it possible >>>>> to implement DSD over HDMI on Intel integrated graphics? Thanks again. >>>> >>>> I don't think so, unless: >>>> >>>> (a) It is possible to somehow encapsulate the stream in Audio Sample >>>> Packets and be accepted by the receiver (like e.g. AC3, DTS). I'm not aware of >>>> such a way. >>>> >>>> or: >>>> (b) There is some undocumented feature in the Intel HDMI codecs allowing >>>> the driver to switch to DSD or driver-constructed packets (instead of >>>> ASP) in similar way as there is a way to switch to HBR packets. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, I agree. And I'm not sure whether HDMI spec supports DSD. >> >> It does, via the "One Bit Audio" and "DST" formats (spec 5.3.9, 5.3.10 >> in 1.3a/1.4a). > > -- Anssi Hannula-- Anssi Hannula
participants (2)
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Andrej Falout -
Anssi Hannula