[alsa-devel] i.MX6 SGTL5000 hangs with EIO error
Hello all,
I am doing an ALSA capture on a Wandboard Quad (i.MX6 quad core with SGTL5000 codec chip) from the LINEIN1 jack. I'm using a 4.6.0-rc3-armv7-x0 kernel.
Sometimes when the audio glitches (for example, when I plug/unplug the audio cable or adjust my signal generator) the snd_pcm_readi() function will start returning -5 (EIO).
Once this happens, the only way I've been able to recover is to reboot the computer. Calling snd_pcm_close(), snd_pcm_prepare(), snd_pcm_start(), etc. doesn't help. When in this state, running arecord returns IO errors as well.
It's interesting that, on rare occasions, I must do a power cycle in order to recover. When a reboot is not effective I've noticed that the capture device doesn't appear in /proc/asound/devices.
I don't believe my specific ALSA settings are important, but I'm calling snd_pcm_readi() with ALSA set to a sample rate of 48000, format of S16_LE, channels=1, frames per period of 960 (20 mS periods), and 4 periods per buffer.
This same problem happens on two different Wandboards, so I don't think it's a defective board or chip. It has happened on older kernels as well.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Ross Wille
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com wrote:
Hello all,
I am doing an ALSA capture on a Wandboard Quad (i.MX6 quad core with SGTL5000 codec chip) from the LINEIN1 jack. I'm using a 4.6.0-rc3-armv7-x0 kernel.
Sometimes when the audio glitches (for example, when I plug/unplug the audio cable or adjust my signal generator) the snd_pcm_readi() function will start returning -5 (EIO).
This sounds like an ESD strike. (when you plug in the cable the ESD on the cable wacks some electronics internally).
See if you can ground yourself, the signal generator, the wand board, and anything else with some ESD straps, and see if you can reproduce the error.
Looking at the wandboard baseboard, the linein1 jack *does* have ESD protection diodes on it.
Interestingly, the mic1 jack does not have ESD diodes. not sure why.
This shouldn't be a software issue, because there's no microphone detection going on in hardware -- the software doesn't know you've inserted anything.
Another possibility is a different type of electrical over stress. There might be a large voltage between your wandboard GND and generator GND. This is common, and is a result of the inter-widing capacitance on the respective 'isolated' power supplies. If that capacitance is large enough, it might be able to drive enough current into the pins to wreck up the SGTL5000 until re-power. But... the wandboard's transient suppression should be enough to deal with that.
Oh, looking at the schematic again, there are TVS, diodes D36/D37, but there is *no* series resistance between the connector and the codec! That could easily be the problem -- an external signal can drive lots of (ac) current in through those lines and cause latch-up. That's why you require a power off/on to reset it. Even a hard reset won't fix latchup.
See if your codec starts to get warm when in this state :-/ Definitely damaging to the codec though.
-Caleb
Once this happens, the only way I've been able to recover is to reboot the computer. Calling snd_pcm_close(), snd_pcm_prepare(), snd_pcm_start(), etc. doesn't help. When in this state, running arecord returns IO errors as well.
It's interesting that, on rare occasions, I must do a power cycle in order to recover. When a reboot is not effective I've noticed that the capture device doesn't appear in /proc/asound/devices.
I don't believe my specific ALSA settings are important, but I'm calling snd_pcm_readi() with ALSA set to a sample rate of 48000, format of S16_LE, channels=1, frames per period of 960 (20 mS periods), and 4 periods per buffer.
This same problem happens on two different Wandboards, so I don't think it's a defective board or chip. It has happened on older kernels as well.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Ross Wille _______________________________________________ Alsa-devel mailing list Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
Hi Caleb,
Thank you for your response!
The LINEIN1 protection on the Wandboard kicks in at around 5 to 5.5 Volts and, as you pointed out, doesn't include a current-limiting resistor. The max-voltage range for the SGTL5000 audio input is spec'd at GND-0.3 to Vdda+0.3. I believe the Wandboard Vdda is 2.5V, so the on-board protection is likely insufficient to limit the input voltage to the datasheet specs.
To mitigate this I have done the following:
1. I've isolated the audio between the signal generator and the codec chip using a professional-grade audio transformer having a breakdown voltage of 250 V RMS, so ground loops should not be an issue, but it might not eliminate ESD completely.
2. For transient protection, I have a bidirectional TVS diode with a breakdown voltage of 1.0V(typ) between the transformer output and ground. The TVS diode meets IEC 61000-4-2 for contact discharge of 8 kV and air discharge of 15 kV and I don't believe its an ESD problem (see #3). The circuit impedance at the TVS diode is about 10 kohms.
3. I'm working on a static mat and I'm grounded.
In spite of doing all this, I still get the error. If latch-up is the culprit (which is possible) I am running out of things to try. I may need to add an active buffer stage to ensure the audio voltage never exceeds the voltage rails (but that'll require a new PCB design--sigh).
I was hoping to find a software recovery solution because rebooting and power-cycling the board are a rather drastic measures.
Thanks!
-Ross
On Thursday 12 May 2016 14:13, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I am doing an ALSA capture on a Wandboard Quad (i.MX6 quad core with SGTL5000 codec chip) from the LINEIN1 jack. I'm using a
4.6.0-rc3-armv7-x0
kernel.
Sometimes when the audio glitches (for example, when I plug/unplug the audio cable or adjust my signal generator) the snd_pcm_readi() function will start returning -5 (EIO).
This sounds like an ESD strike. (when you plug in the cable the ESD on the cable wacks some electronics internally).
See if you can ground yourself, the signal generator, the wand board, and anything else with some ESD straps, and see if you can reproduce the
error.
Looking at the wandboard baseboard, the linein1 jack *does* have ESD protection diodes on it.
Interestingly, the mic1 jack does not have ESD diodes. not sure why.
This shouldn't be a software issue, because there's no microphone
detection
going on in hardware -- the software doesn't know you've inserted
anything.
Another possibility is a different type of electrical over stress. There might be a large voltage between your wandboard GND and generator GND. This is common, and is a result of the inter-widing capacitance on the respective 'isolated' power supplies. If that capacitance is large
enough,
it might be able to drive enough current into the pins to wreck up the SGTL5000 until re-power. But... the wandboard's transient suppression should be enough to deal with that.
Oh, looking at the schematic again, there are TVS, diodes D36/D37, but there is *no* series resistance between the connector and the codec! That could easily be the problem -- an external signal can drive lots of (ac) current in through those lines and cause latch-up. That's why you require a power off/on to reset it. Even a hard reset won't fix latchup.
See if your codec starts to get warm when in this state :-/ Definitely damaging to the codec though.
-Caleb
Once this happens, the only way I've been able to recover is to reboot
the
computer. Calling snd_pcm_close(), snd_pcm_prepare(), snd_pcm_start(), etc. doesn't help. When in this state, running arecord returns IO
errors
as well.
It's interesting that, on rare occasions, I must do a power cycle in
order
to recover. When a reboot is not effective I've noticed that the
capture
device doesn't appear in /proc/asound/devices.
I don't believe my specific ALSA settings are important, but I'm calling snd_pcm_readi() with ALSA set to a sample rate of 48000, format of
S16_LE,
channels=1, frames per period of 960 (20 mS periods), and 4 periods per buffer.
This same problem happens on two different Wandboards, so I don't think it's a defective board or chip. It has happened on older kernels as well.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Ross Wille _______________________________________________ Alsa-devel mailing list Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com wrote:
Hi Caleb,
Thank you for your response!
The LINEIN1 protection on the Wandboard kicks in at around 5 to 5.5 Volts and, as you pointed out, doesn't include a current-limiting resistor. The max-voltage range for the SGTL5000 audio input is spec'd at GND-0.3 to Vdda+0.3. I believe the Wandboard Vdda is 2.5V, so the on-board protection is likely insufficient to limit the input voltage to the datasheet specs.
To mitigate this I have done the following:
- I've isolated the audio between the signal generator and the codec chip
using a professional-grade audio transformer having a breakdown voltage of 250 V RMS, so ground loops should not be an issue, but it might not eliminate ESD completely.
Ah, a Jensen Transformer I assume? Those things are great. And the guy (Bill Whitlock) really knows about dealing with hum issues. His license plate reads MR CMRR. The DMV initially wouldn't give him that plate. Until he explained that CMRR stands for 'common-mode rejection ratio' :-) The stuff you learn at AES conventions...
- For transient protection, I have a bidirectional TVS diode with a
breakdown voltage of 1.0V(typ) between the transformer output and ground. The TVS diode meets IEC 61000-4-2 for contact discharge of 8 kV and air discharge of 15 kV and I don't believe its an ESD problem (see #3). The circuit impedance at the TVS diode is about 10 kohms.
- I'm working on a static mat and I'm grounded.
In spite of doing all this, I still get the error. If latch-up is the culprit (which is possible) I am running out of things to try. I may need to add an active buffer stage to ensure the audio voltage never exceeds the voltage rails (but that'll require a new PCB design--sigh).
Is this your custom board + wandboard, or is it the standard wandboard?
Is it possible that the GND of the audio connector (which is what should get hit first if you're plugging into the jack at the board side) isn't a very good ground, and is letting ESD couple to some other lines? ESD is icky that way. But, if you're ESD grounded, then this shouldn't be the issue anyway.
I was hoping to find a software recovery solution because rebooting and power-cycling the board are a rather drastic measures.
I doubt that's possible if a reset doesn't recover it -- it seems to be really broken if you need a power cycle. That's also a hint that it's latchup causing the problem.
Thanks!
-Ross
Looks like you've got most of it covered :-)
Can you do some protection like this? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FeiEiLS9DzMVpTWm9QcDY5UHM/view?usp=sharin...
using something like a BAT54S? That should do a very good job of limiting the voltage to the codec. but, a 1V TVS should do the job too I think if it's placed on the wandboard. Where is your TVS diode placed? Soldered in close on the connector of the wandboard, or floating out in space. But... ESD just shouldn't be the problem if you're properly grounded.
What else could be the culprit I wonder? This happens as soon as you plug in, right? Does the problem ever happen when nobody is near by and breathing on it? Or is always in response to some body coming close and touching things?
I'm kind of out of ideas without actually getting in close to it and seeing what happens and when.
Let me know if you can figure out any more details of when the problem happens. I just think it's got to be a hardware problem, but I've seen stranger things end up being software problems. :-)
Cheers, -Caleb
On Thursday 12 May 2016 14:13, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I am doing an ALSA capture on a Wandboard Quad (i.MX6 quad core with SGTL5000 codec chip) from the LINEIN1 jack. I'm using a
4.6.0-rc3-armv7-x0
kernel.
Sometimes when the audio glitches (for example, when I plug/unplug the audio cable or adjust my signal generator) the snd_pcm_readi() function will start returning -5 (EIO).
This sounds like an ESD strike. (when you plug in the cable the ESD on
the
cable wacks some electronics internally).
See if you can ground yourself, the signal generator, the wand board, and anything else with some ESD straps, and see if you can reproduce the
error.
Looking at the wandboard baseboard, the linein1 jack *does* have ESD protection diodes on it.
Interestingly, the mic1 jack does not have ESD diodes. not sure why.
This shouldn't be a software issue, because there's no microphone
detection
going on in hardware -- the software doesn't know you've inserted
anything.
Another possibility is a different type of electrical over stress. There might be a large voltage between your wandboard GND and generator GND. This is common, and is a result of the inter-widing capacitance on the respective 'isolated' power supplies. If that capacitance is large
enough,
it might be able to drive enough current into the pins to wreck up the SGTL5000 until re-power. But... the wandboard's transient suppression should be enough to deal with that.
Oh, looking at the schematic again, there are TVS, diodes D36/D37, but there is *no* series resistance between the connector and the codec!
That
could easily be the problem -- an external signal can drive lots of (ac) current in through those lines and cause latch-up. That's why you
require
a power off/on to reset it. Even a hard reset won't fix latchup.
See if your codec starts to get warm when in this state :-/ Definitely damaging to the codec though.
-Caleb
Once this happens, the only way I've been able to recover is to reboot
the
computer. Calling snd_pcm_close(), snd_pcm_prepare(), snd_pcm_start(), etc. doesn't help. When in this state, running arecord returns IO
errors
as well.
It's interesting that, on rare occasions, I must do a power cycle in
order
to recover. When a reboot is not effective I've noticed that the
capture
device doesn't appear in /proc/asound/devices.
I don't believe my specific ALSA settings are important, but I'm
calling
snd_pcm_readi() with ALSA set to a sample rate of 48000, format of
S16_LE,
channels=1, frames per period of 960 (20 mS periods), and 4 periods per buffer.
This same problem happens on two different Wandboards, so I don't think it's a defective board or chip. It has happened on older kernels as well.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Ross Wille _______________________________________________ Alsa-devel mailing list Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
Caleb,
Yes, it's a Jensen JT-11P-1HPC (10k 1:1) line transformer.
I have a custom isolation PC board, which includes the XLR jack, isolation transformer, variable attenuator, and transient protection. The board has separate "shield" and analog grounds. The output of this board feeds into a standard, unmodified Wandboard via the 3.5mm LINEIN1 jack.
I'm not plugging/unplugging the Wandboard connector (well, I started out that way, but the results were terrible). With the transformer and the TVS diode the problem is MUCH better than it was initially. When I was driving the LINEIN1 jack directly from the signal generator plugging/unplugging the audio connector had a significant chance of making this happen.
Now, the isolation board is always connected to the Wandboard. And plugging/unplugging the XLR connector is pretty reliable. The easiest way I've found to make the problem happen is by keeping everything connected and toggling the power switch on my signal generator repeatedly.
I don't think I'm getting any ESD during my tests, although when this device gets put into service I'd expect to get some ESD when they plug into the XLR jack while the device is powered. (Maybe I'll tell them not to do that, but they're talking heads, not geeks.)
Most of the time a reboot fixes the problem, but I've seen rare occasions when it does require a power cycle.
The SGTL5000 doesn't have an external reset. It has an internal reset circuit which waits 8 clock cycles after power-on before it comes out of reset. So, a hardware reset of this chip requires a power cycle.
There may be a way to force a software reset if I can still talk to the chip, but if the chip is latched up only a power cycle is going to fix that.
The LINEIN1 is capacitively coupled to the SGTL5000 (I assume that's because the SGTL5000 input has a DC bias on it). I'm clamping +/-1V relative to the Wandboard's signal ground, but that's on the AC-coupled side of the signal. It'd be better to clamp it going into the codec as you've shown in your sketch.
You asked where the TVS diode is located. It's a ESDARF01-1BM2 on the custom isolation PCB and it's connected between signal and ground just before it goes out the cable (which is only 6 inches long) and into the Wandboard's LINEIN1 connector. It would definitely be better if the protection was on the Wandboard itself, especially after the coupling capacitor.
No, breathing on it doesn't affect it. :-) I can run all night with a nearly full-swing sine wave at 1kHz and it never fails. It used to fail regularly when I messed with the audio connections, but now it's much harder to reproduce it.
Thanks again for all your thoughts and ideas. It's close to being good enough, but it's not very professional for a piece of gear to stop working just because someone plugged in an XLR cable.
-Ross
On Friday 13 May 2016 13:23, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com wrote:
Hi Caleb,
Thank you for your response!
The LINEIN1 protection on the Wandboard kicks in at around 5 to 5.5
Volts
and, as you pointed out, doesn't include a current-limiting resistor.
The
max-voltage range for the SGTL5000 audio input is spec'd at GND-0.3 to Vdda+0.3. I believe the Wandboard Vdda is 2.5V, so the on-board
protection
is likely insufficient to limit the input voltage to the datasheet
specs.
To mitigate this I have done the following:
- I've isolated the audio between the signal generator and the codec
chip
using a professional-grade audio transformer having a breakdown voltage
of
250 V RMS, so ground loops should not be an issue, but it might not eliminate ESD completely.
Ah, a Jensen Transformer I assume? Those things are great. And the guy (Bill Whitlock) really knows about dealing with hum issues. His license plate reads MR CMRR. The DMV initially wouldn't give him that plate. Until he explained that CMRR stands for 'common-mode rejection ratio' :-) The stuff you learn at AES conventions...
- For transient protection, I have a bidirectional TVS diode with a
breakdown voltage of 1.0V(typ) between the transformer output and
ground.
The TVS diode meets IEC 61000-4-2 for contact discharge of 8 kV and air discharge of 15 kV and I don't believe its an ESD problem (see #3). The circuit impedance at the TVS diode is about 10 kohms.
- I'm working on a static mat and I'm grounded.
In spite of doing all this, I still get the error. If latch-up is the culprit (which is possible) I am running out of things to try. I may
need
to add an active buffer stage to ensure the audio voltage never exceeds
the
voltage rails (but that'll require a new PCB design--sigh).
Is this your custom board + wandboard, or is it the standard wandboard?
Is it possible that the GND of the audio connector (which is what should get hit first if you're plugging into the jack at the board side) isn't a very good ground, and is letting ESD couple to some other lines? ESD is icky that way. But, if you're ESD grounded, then this shouldn't be the issue anyway.
I was hoping to find a software recovery solution because rebooting and power-cycling the board are a rather drastic measures.
I doubt that's possible if a reset doesn't recover it -- it seems to be really broken if you need a power cycle. That's also a hint that it's latchup causing the problem.
Thanks!
-Ross
Looks like you've got most of it covered :-)
Can you do some protection like this?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FeiEiLS9DzMVpTWm9QcDY5UHM/view?usp=sharin...
using something like a BAT54S? That should do a very good job of limiting the voltage to the codec. but, a 1V TVS should do the job too I think if it's placed on the wandboard. Where is your TVS diode placed? Soldered
in
close on the connector of the wandboard, or floating out in space. But... ESD just shouldn't be the problem if you're properly grounded.
What else could be the culprit I wonder? This happens as soon as you plug in, right? Does the problem ever happen when nobody is near by and breathing on it? Or is always in response to some body coming close and touching things?
I'm kind of out of ideas without actually getting in close to it and
seeing
what happens and when.
Let me know if you can figure out any more details of when the problem happens. I just think it's got to be a hardware problem, but I've seen stranger things end up being software problems. :-)
Cheers, -Caleb
On Thursday 12 May 2016 14:13, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I am doing an ALSA capture on a Wandboard Quad (i.MX6 quad core with SGTL5000 codec chip) from the LINEIN1 jack. I'm using a
4.6.0-rc3-armv7-x0
kernel.
Sometimes when the audio glitches (for example, when I plug/unplug
the
audio cable or adjust my signal generator) the snd_pcm_readi() function
will
start returning -5 (EIO).
This sounds like an ESD strike. (when you plug in the cable the ESD on
the
cable wacks some electronics internally).
See if you can ground yourself, the signal generator, the wand board,
and
anything else with some ESD straps, and see if you can reproduce the
error.
Looking at the wandboard baseboard, the linein1 jack *does* have ESD protection diodes on it.
Interestingly, the mic1 jack does not have ESD diodes. not sure why.
This shouldn't be a software issue, because there's no microphone
detection
going on in hardware -- the software doesn't know you've inserted
anything.
Another possibility is a different type of electrical over stress.
There
might be a large voltage between your wandboard GND and generator GND. This is common, and is a result of the inter-widing capacitance on the respective 'isolated' power supplies. If that capacitance is large
enough,
it might be able to drive enough current into the pins to wreck up the SGTL5000 until re-power. But... the wandboard's transient
suppression
should be enough to deal with that.
Oh, looking at the schematic again, there are TVS, diodes D36/D37, but there is *no* series resistance between the connector and the codec!
That
could easily be the problem -- an external signal can drive lots of
(ac)
current in through those lines and cause latch-up. That's why you
require
a power off/on to reset it. Even a hard reset won't fix latchup.
See if your codec starts to get warm when in this state :-/
Definitely
damaging to the codec though.
-Caleb
Once this happens, the only way I've been able to recover is to
reboot
the
computer. Calling snd_pcm_close(), snd_pcm_prepare(),
snd_pcm_start(),
etc. doesn't help. When in this state, running arecord returns IO
errors
as well.
It's interesting that, on rare occasions, I must do a power cycle in
order
to recover. When a reboot is not effective I've noticed that the
capture
device doesn't appear in /proc/asound/devices.
I don't believe my specific ALSA settings are important, but I'm
calling
snd_pcm_readi() with ALSA set to a sample rate of 48000, format of
S16_LE,
channels=1, frames per period of 960 (20 mS periods), and 4 periods
per
buffer.
This same problem happens on two different Wandboards, so I don't
think
it's a defective board or chip. It has happened on older kernels as
well.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Ross Wille _______________________________________________ Alsa-devel mailing list Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com wrote:
Caleb,
Yes, it's a Jensen JT-11P-1HPC (10k 1:1) line transformer.
I have a custom isolation PC board, which includes the XLR jack, isolation transformer, variable attenuator, and transient protection. The board has separate "shield" and analog grounds. The output of this board feeds into a standard, unmodified Wandboard via the 3.5mm LINEIN1 jack.
I'm not plugging/unplugging the Wandboard connector (well, I started out that way, but the results were terrible). With the transformer and the TVS diode the problem is MUCH better than it was initially. When I was driving the LINEIN1 jack directly from the signal generator plugging/unplugging the audio connector had a significant chance of making this happen.
Now, the isolation board is always connected to the Wandboard. And plugging/unplugging the XLR connector is pretty reliable. The easiest way I've found to make the problem happen is by keeping everything connected and toggling the power switch on my signal generator repeatedly.
Ah Ha! Hint hint! Yes, not ESD, but electrical overstress -- too much current I think. There is still some nonzero inter-winding capacitance even in the Jensen transformer, and flipping that power switch gives a nice big 340 V p-p (120Vrms) shove across those inter-widning capacitances & impedances, (plus who knows what kind of currenets due to inductive switching) and even with the protection you have, there isn't enough protection to prevent latchup.
I don't think I'm getting any ESD during my tests, although when this device gets put into service I'd expect to get some ESD when they plug into the XLR jack while the device is powered. (Maybe I'll tell them not to do that, but they're talking heads, not geeks.)
Most of the time a reboot fixes the problem, but I've seen rare occasions when it does require a power cycle.
The SGTL5000 doesn't have an external reset. It has an internal reset circuit which waits 8 clock cycles after power-on before it comes out of reset. So, a hardware reset of this chip requires a power cycle.
Ah, bad on the designers of STL5000.
There may be a way to force a software reset if I can still talk to the chip, but if the chip is latched up only a power cycle is going to fix that.
Who knows, maybe not latchup then. May simply be a glitch that causes it to stop functioning. I hadn't looked and noticed there was no hardware reset. A friend of mine once had a similar problem and was able to force the chip to come back to life by toggling the I2C SDA and SCL lines a bunch of times (upon advice from the chip maker). You might have a hard time getting Linux to give you back the pins and toggle them like GPIOs, rather than treat them as an I2C bus.
The LINEIN1 is capacitively coupled to the SGTL5000 (I assume that's because the SGTL5000 input has a DC bias on it).
Correct.
I'm clamping +/-1V relative to the Wandboard's signal ground, but that's on the AC-coupled side of the signal.
Right, which should get the job done. The bias is probably something like 1.3V or something, so your clamp should do a decent job of preventing much negative voltage getting through.
It'd be better to clamp it going into the codec as you've shown in your sketch.
Right, but you need access to VDDA.
You asked where the TVS diode is located. It's a ESDARF01-1BM2 on the custom isolation PCB and it's connected between signal and ground just before it goes out the cable (which is only 6 inches long) and into the Wandboard's LINEIN1 connector. It would definitely be better if the protection was on the Wandboard itself, especially after the coupling capacitor.
No, breathing on it doesn't affect it. :-) I can run all night with a nearly full-swing sine wave at 1kHz and it never fails. It used to fail regularly when I messed with the audio connections, but now it's much harder to reproduce it.
so, it's definitely due to the transient of connecting the signal generator.
Can I ask why you're using a signal generator? I've found that a good pro-audio sound card (like RME, or any of the other pro-audio stuff) do a much better job of creating and capturing audio signals than most lab gear (except the audio-specific lab gear like Audio Precision, etc).
For that matter, you can probably do just great using your iPhone with AudioTools as your signal generator. Then you definitely won't have this problem. :-)
Thanks again for all your thoughts and ideas. It's close to being good enough, but it's not very professional for a piece of gear to stop working just because someone plugged in an XLR cable.
No problem! I'm glad I could help.
-Caleb
-Ross
On Friday 13 May 2016 13:23, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com
wrote:
Hi Caleb,
Thank you for your response!
The LINEIN1 protection on the Wandboard kicks in at around 5 to 5.5
Volts
and, as you pointed out, doesn't include a current-limiting resistor.
The
max-voltage range for the SGTL5000 audio input is spec'd at GND-0.3 to Vdda+0.3. I believe the Wandboard Vdda is 2.5V, so the on-board
protection
is likely insufficient to limit the input voltage to the datasheet
specs.
To mitigate this I have done the following:
- I've isolated the audio between the signal generator and the codec
chip
using a professional-grade audio transformer having a breakdown voltage
of
250 V RMS, so ground loops should not be an issue, but it might not eliminate ESD completely.
Ah, a Jensen Transformer I assume? Those things are great. And the guy (Bill Whitlock) really knows about dealing with hum issues. His license plate reads MR CMRR. The DMV initially wouldn't give him that plate. Until he explained that CMRR stands for 'common-mode rejection ratio' :-) The stuff you learn at AES conventions...
- For transient protection, I have a bidirectional TVS diode with a
breakdown voltage of 1.0V(typ) between the transformer output and
ground.
The TVS diode meets IEC 61000-4-2 for contact discharge of 8 kV and air discharge of 15 kV and I don't believe its an ESD problem (see #3).
The
circuit impedance at the TVS diode is about 10 kohms.
- I'm working on a static mat and I'm grounded.
In spite of doing all this, I still get the error. If latch-up is the culprit (which is possible) I am running out of things to try. I may
need
to add an active buffer stage to ensure the audio voltage never exceeds
the
voltage rails (but that'll require a new PCB design--sigh).
Is this your custom board + wandboard, or is it the standard wandboard?
Is it possible that the GND of the audio connector (which is what should get hit first if you're plugging into the jack at the board side) isn't a very good ground, and is letting ESD couple to some other lines? ESD is icky that way. But, if you're ESD grounded, then this shouldn't be the issue anyway.
I was hoping to find a software recovery solution because rebooting and power-cycling the board are a rather drastic measures.
I doubt that's possible if a reset doesn't recover it -- it seems to be really broken if you need a power cycle. That's also a hint that it's latchup causing the problem.
Thanks!
-Ross
Looks like you've got most of it covered :-)
Can you do some protection like this?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FeiEiLS9DzMVpTWm9QcDY5UHM/view?usp=sharin...
using something like a BAT54S? That should do a very good job of
limiting
the voltage to the codec. but, a 1V TVS should do the job too I think if it's placed on the wandboard. Where is your TVS diode placed? Soldered
in
close on the connector of the wandboard, or floating out in space.
But...
ESD just shouldn't be the problem if you're properly grounded.
What else could be the culprit I wonder? This happens as soon as you
plug
in, right? Does the problem ever happen when nobody is near by and breathing on it? Or is always in response to some body coming close and touching things?
I'm kind of out of ideas without actually getting in close to it and
seeing
what happens and when.
Let me know if you can figure out any more details of when the problem happens. I just think it's got to be a hardware problem, but I've seen stranger things end up being software problems. :-)
Cheers, -Caleb
On Thursday 12 May 2016 14:13, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I am doing an ALSA capture on a Wandboard Quad (i.MX6 quad core
with
SGTL5000 codec chip) from the LINEIN1 jack. I'm using a
4.6.0-rc3-armv7-x0
kernel.
Sometimes when the audio glitches (for example, when I plug/unplug
the
audio cable or adjust my signal generator) the snd_pcm_readi() function
will
start returning -5 (EIO).
This sounds like an ESD strike. (when you plug in the cable the ESD
on
the
cable wacks some electronics internally).
See if you can ground yourself, the signal generator, the wand board,
and
anything else with some ESD straps, and see if you can reproduce the
error.
Looking at the wandboard baseboard, the linein1 jack *does* have ESD protection diodes on it.
Interestingly, the mic1 jack does not have ESD diodes. not sure why.
This shouldn't be a software issue, because there's no microphone
detection
going on in hardware -- the software doesn't know you've inserted
anything.
Another possibility is a different type of electrical over stress.
There
might be a large voltage between your wandboard GND and generator
GND.
This is common, and is a result of the inter-widing capacitance on
the
respective 'isolated' power supplies. If that capacitance is large
enough,
it might be able to drive enough current into the pins to wreck up
the
SGTL5000 until re-power. But... the wandboard's transient
suppression
should be enough to deal with that.
Oh, looking at the schematic again, there are TVS, diodes D36/D37,
but
there is *no* series resistance between the connector and the codec!
That
could easily be the problem -- an external signal can drive lots of
(ac)
current in through those lines and cause latch-up. That's why you
require
a power off/on to reset it. Even a hard reset won't fix latchup.
See if your codec starts to get warm when in this state :-/
Definitely
damaging to the codec though.
-Caleb
Once this happens, the only way I've been able to recover is to
reboot
the
computer. Calling snd_pcm_close(), snd_pcm_prepare(),
snd_pcm_start(),
etc. doesn't help. When in this state, running arecord returns IO
errors
as well.
It's interesting that, on rare occasions, I must do a power cycle
in
order
to recover. When a reboot is not effective I've noticed that the
capture
device doesn't appear in /proc/asound/devices.
I don't believe my specific ALSA settings are important, but I'm
calling
snd_pcm_readi() with ALSA set to a sample rate of 48000, format of
S16_LE,
channels=1, frames per period of 960 (20 mS periods), and 4 periods
per
buffer.
This same problem happens on two different Wandboards, so I don't
think
it's a defective board or chip. It has happened on older kernels as
well.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Ross Wille _______________________________________________ Alsa-devel mailing list Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Caleb Crome caleb@crome.org wrote:
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com wrote:
Caleb,
Yes, it's a Jensen JT-11P-1HPC (10k 1:1) line transformer.
I have a custom isolation PC board, which includes the XLR jack, isolation transformer, variable attenuator, and transient protection. The board has separate "shield" and analog grounds. The output of this board feeds into a standard, unmodified Wandboard via the 3.5mm LINEIN1 jack.
I'm not plugging/unplugging the Wandboard connector (well, I started out that way, but the results were terrible). With the transformer and the TVS diode the problem is MUCH better than it was initially. When I was driving the LINEIN1 jack directly from the signal generator plugging/unplugging the audio connector had a significant chance of making this happen.
Now, the isolation board is always connected to the Wandboard. And plugging/unplugging the XLR connector is pretty reliable. The easiest way I've found to make the problem happen is by keeping everything connected and toggling the power switch on my signal generator repeatedly.
Ah Ha! Hint hint! Yes, not ESD, but electrical overstress -- too much current I think. There is still some nonzero inter-winding capacitance even in the Jensen transformer, and flipping that power switch gives a nice big 340 V p-p (120Vrms) shove across those inter-widning capacitances & impedances, (plus who knows what kind of currenets due to inductive switching) and even with the protection you have, there isn't enough protection to prevent latchup.
I don't think I'm getting any ESD during my tests, although when this device gets put into service I'd expect to get some ESD when they plug into the XLR jack while the device is powered. (Maybe I'll tell them not to do that, but they're talking heads, not geeks.)
Most of the time a reboot fixes the problem, but I've seen rare occasions when it does require a power cycle.
The SGTL5000 doesn't have an external reset. It has an internal reset circuit which waits 8 clock cycles after power-on before it comes out of reset. So, a hardware reset of this chip requires a power cycle.
Ah, bad on the designers of STL5000.
There may be a way to force a software reset if I can still talk to the chip, but if the chip is latched up only a power cycle is going to fix that.
Who knows, maybe not latchup then. May simply be a glitch that causes it to stop functioning. I hadn't looked and noticed there was no hardware reset. A friend of mine once had a similar problem and was able to force the chip to come back to life by toggling the I2C SDA and SCL lines a bunch of times (upon advice from the chip maker). You might have a hard time getting Linux to give you back the pins and toggle them like GPIOs, rather than treat them as an I2C bus.
The LINEIN1 is capacitively coupled to the SGTL5000 (I assume that's because the SGTL5000 input has a DC bias on it).
Correct.
I'm clamping +/-1V relative to the Wandboard's signal ground, but that's on the AC-coupled side of the signal.
Right, which should get the job done. The bias is probably something like 1.3V or something, so your clamp should do a decent job of preventing much negative voltage getting through.
It'd be better to clamp it going into the codec as you've shown in your sketch.
Right, but you need access to VDDA.
You asked where the TVS diode is located. It's a ESDARF01-1BM2 on the custom isolation PCB and it's connected between signal and ground just before it goes out the cable (which is only 6 inches long) and into the Wandboard's LINEIN1 connector. It would definitely be better if the protection was on the Wandboard itself, especially after the coupling capacitor.
No, breathing on it doesn't affect it. :-) I can run all night with a nearly full-swing sine wave at 1kHz and it never fails. It used to fail regularly when I messed with the audio connections, but now it's much harder to reproduce it.
so, it's definitely due to the transient of connecting the signal generator.
Can I ask why you're using a signal generator? I've found that a good pro-audio sound card (like RME, or any of the other pro-audio stuff) do a much better job of creating and capturing audio signals than most lab gear (except the audio-specific lab gear like Audio Precision, etc).
For that matter, you can probably do just great using your iPhone with AudioTools as your signal generator. Then you definitely won't have this problem. :-)
Thanks again for all your thoughts and ideas. It's close to being good enough, but it's not very professional for a piece of gear to stop working just because someone plugged in an XLR cable.
No problem! I'm glad I could help.
-Caleb
By the way, I just found this circuit:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/input-protection-question/msg123612/?P...
It might not be great for audio, but gives good ideas how to make a bullet proof input. One that can be shorted to 240V and still survive just fine.
-Ross
On Friday 13 May 2016 13:23, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Ross Wille audio@cornerbrick.com
wrote:
Hi Caleb,
Thank you for your response!
The LINEIN1 protection on the Wandboard kicks in at around 5 to 5.5
Volts
and, as you pointed out, doesn't include a current-limiting resistor.
The
max-voltage range for the SGTL5000 audio input is spec'd at GND-0.3 to Vdda+0.3. I believe the Wandboard Vdda is 2.5V, so the on-board
protection
is likely insufficient to limit the input voltage to the datasheet
specs.
To mitigate this I have done the following:
- I've isolated the audio between the signal generator and the codec
chip
using a professional-grade audio transformer having a breakdown
voltage of
250 V RMS, so ground loops should not be an issue, but it might not eliminate ESD completely.
Ah, a Jensen Transformer I assume? Those things are great. And the guy (Bill Whitlock) really knows about dealing with hum issues. His license plate reads MR CMRR. The DMV initially wouldn't give him that plate. Until he explained that CMRR stands for 'common-mode rejection ratio'
:-)
The stuff you learn at AES conventions...
- For transient protection, I have a bidirectional TVS diode with a
breakdown voltage of 1.0V(typ) between the transformer output and
ground.
The TVS diode meets IEC 61000-4-2 for contact discharge of 8 kV and
air
discharge of 15 kV and I don't believe its an ESD problem (see #3).
The
circuit impedance at the TVS diode is about 10 kohms.
- I'm working on a static mat and I'm grounded.
In spite of doing all this, I still get the error. If latch-up is the culprit (which is possible) I am running out of things to try. I may
need
to add an active buffer stage to ensure the audio voltage never
exceeds the
voltage rails (but that'll require a new PCB design--sigh).
Is this your custom board + wandboard, or is it the standard wandboard?
Is it possible that the GND of the audio connector (which is what should get hit first if you're plugging into the jack at the board side) isn't
a
very good ground, and is letting ESD couple to some other lines? ESD is icky that way. But, if you're ESD grounded, then this shouldn't be
the
issue anyway.
I was hoping to find a software recovery solution because rebooting
and
power-cycling the board are a rather drastic measures.
I doubt that's possible if a reset doesn't recover it -- it seems to be really broken if you need a power cycle. That's also a hint that it's latchup causing the problem.
Thanks!
-Ross
Looks like you've got most of it covered :-)
Can you do some protection like this?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FeiEiLS9DzMVpTWm9QcDY5UHM/view?usp=sharin...
using something like a BAT54S? That should do a very good job of
limiting
the voltage to the codec. but, a 1V TVS should do the job too I think
if
it's placed on the wandboard. Where is your TVS diode placed? Soldered
in
close on the connector of the wandboard, or floating out in space.
But...
ESD just shouldn't be the problem if you're properly grounded.
What else could be the culprit I wonder? This happens as soon as you
plug
in, right? Does the problem ever happen when nobody is near by and breathing on it? Or is always in response to some body coming close and touching things?
I'm kind of out of ideas without actually getting in close to it and
seeing
what happens and when.
Let me know if you can figure out any more details of when the problem happens. I just think it's got to be a hardware problem, but I've seen stranger things end up being software problems. :-)
Cheers, -Caleb
On Thursday 12 May 2016 14:13, Caleb Crome wrote:
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Ross Wille <audio@cornerbrick.com
wrote:
Hello all,
I am doing an ALSA capture on a Wandboard Quad (i.MX6 quad core
with
SGTL5000 codec chip) from the LINEIN1 jack. I'm using a
4.6.0-rc3-armv7-x0
kernel.
Sometimes when the audio glitches (for example, when I plug/unplug
the
audio cable or adjust my signal generator) the snd_pcm_readi() function
will
start returning -5 (EIO).
This sounds like an ESD strike. (when you plug in the cable the ESD
on
the
cable wacks some electronics internally).
See if you can ground yourself, the signal generator, the wand
board, and
anything else with some ESD straps, and see if you can reproduce the
error.
Looking at the wandboard baseboard, the linein1 jack *does* have ESD protection diodes on it.
Interestingly, the mic1 jack does not have ESD diodes. not sure
why.
This shouldn't be a software issue, because there's no microphone
detection
going on in hardware -- the software doesn't know you've inserted
anything.
Another possibility is a different type of electrical over stress.
There
might be a large voltage between your wandboard GND and generator
GND.
This is common, and is a result of the inter-widing capacitance on
the
respective 'isolated' power supplies. If that capacitance is large
enough,
it might be able to drive enough current into the pins to wreck up
the
SGTL5000 until re-power. But... the wandboard's transient
suppression
should be enough to deal with that.
Oh, looking at the schematic again, there are TVS, diodes D36/D37,
but
there is *no* series resistance between the connector and the codec!
That
could easily be the problem -- an external signal can drive lots of
(ac)
current in through those lines and cause latch-up. That's why you
require
a power off/on to reset it. Even a hard reset won't fix latchup.
See if your codec starts to get warm when in this state :-/
Definitely
damaging to the codec though.
-Caleb
Once this happens, the only way I've been able to recover is to
reboot
the
computer. Calling snd_pcm_close(), snd_pcm_prepare(),
snd_pcm_start(),
etc. doesn't help. When in this state, running arecord returns IO
errors
as well.
It's interesting that, on rare occasions, I must do a power cycle
in
order
to recover. When a reboot is not effective I've noticed that the
capture
device doesn't appear in /proc/asound/devices.
I don't believe my specific ALSA settings are important, but I'm
calling
snd_pcm_readi() with ALSA set to a sample rate of 48000, format of
S16_LE,
channels=1, frames per period of 960 (20 mS periods), and 4
periods per
buffer.
This same problem happens on two different Wandboards, so I don't
think
it's a defective board or chip. It has happened on older kernels as
well.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Ross Wille _______________________________________________ Alsa-devel mailing list Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
participants (2)
-
Caleb Crome -
Ross Wille