Re: [alsa-devel] multiseat and alsa audio systems (usb headsets and usb audio adapters)
Sean McNamara wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Jelle de Jong jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Hello everybody,
I have a four to eighth muliseat debian linux system here and it is missing sound for the users. I was hoping the alsa team can help me with this issue.
All sound issues on Linux are extremely application-specific. Getting sound to work without any specific application in mind is asking for trouble, because there is no single configuration of the sound stack (which, if you expand into historical sound APIs and servers, contains about 20 different ways to play sound) that will satisfy any application without further configuration.
Since this is not a really well-formed question, I will proceed with the assumption that you want to be able to run, for example,
aplay /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
in the console, and have it produce sound in the "appropriate" headset. Here's how you proceed:
- Each person on the multiseat box must have their own UNIX user account.
- Each user account must have an ~/.asoundrc file.
- Each ~/.asoundrc file must redefine the "default" device. How you
redefine it depends on a lot of things: (a) Do you want _direct_ hardware access to the sound card, i.e. one application at a time? (b) Do you want to use ALSA's built-in software mixing, i.e. dmix? (c) How many channels? (d) Do you want to use PulseAudio? (e) Do you want to use JACK? (f) For each USB headset, what is its corresponding "raw device string"? This will be something like hw:n, where n is a number starting from 0, depending on the order in which the USB drivers initialize each USB controller.
All of the above questions, and others, will determine exactly how each user configures their ~/.asoundrc file.
The *extremely naive* (not recommended) example of an ~/.asoundrc is like:
pcm.!default { card 3 }
to have ALSA clients play sound, by default, to the fourth sound device that happened to be initialized.
I have usb headsets and usb audio devices and all users have there own usb hub. There are no internal audio cards in the multiseat server.
How can we configure an system that the user can listen to audio only to the devices connected to his usb hub.
Well, this is guaranteed by design, isn't it? Without physical access to someone else's headset, how would I get access to the audio streams being played to that headset? I don't think this really expresses what your problem is.
If we flip your question around, it might be a little more interesting: "How can we configure a system so that each user's applications will only play audio to that user's corresponding headset?"
You can interpret this question in two ways:
- "How can we _prevent_ users from playing sound to each other's
sound cards?" [mutually untrust[ed/ing] users] or 2. "How can we configure the default settings so that, if untampered with, a user's applications will play sound to that user's own headset and not anyone else's?" [mutually trust[ed/ing] users]
The lack of hardware mixing actually comes back to being a security benefit to user space control in this kind of situation. Recall that if I run
aplay --device=hw:0 /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
then as long as the aplay program is playing sound to hw:0, it is *impossible* (short of some really devious hacking in alsa-lib or the kernel) for another application -- from this user, or another -- to also play sound to hw:0 at the same time. I'll call this claim "No Native SW Mixing".
Now, let's look at what is required to satisfy the question in each of the two above cases.
Trusted:
- We know that users aren't going to maliciously try and hurt one
another's ears by setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. We know that users won't try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it'll stay that way. 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users trust each other, they won't do this. 5. We can use something like dmix, or just use hw:0 if users don't need simultaneous app output, and things will be fine. 6. dmix is a viable option to implement software mixing. 7. PulseAudio is also a viable option to implement software mixing.
Untrusted:
- Users may want to maliciously try and hurt one another's ears by
setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. Users may try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it could get messed up again. [There's not much you can do to prevent this ... at least not based on existing open source tools.] 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users do not trust each other, there is potential for 3 to happen. 5. We must use 'No Native SW Mixing' to our advantage, to create a walled garden around each user's sound experience. We need a process that, once started by a user, will permanently "hog" the sound card that user wants to use. This process should, ideally, allow other processes run by that user (and by that user only) to access their USB headset for output or input. We need a "gatekeeper" that is sensitive to the context in which an app is being run. 6. dmix is a NOT viable option to implement software mixing, because: (a) Once all dmix applications close their streams, the audio device hw:n is available, and some malicious user can decide to acquire it, abuse it, and prevent its rightful user from accessing it with his own applications. (b) dmix does not restrict users from outputting sound based on their UID or session. It is NOT a gatekeeper, just an open gate. 7. PulseAudio is [perhaps the best] viable solution to implement software mixing for each respective user. It is also a viable solution to preventing users from taking control of one another's sound devices.
Configuring pulseaudio for a multi-soundcard multi-user system is out of the scope of this mailing list, but suffice it to say that it can be done. You will want to run one PulseAudio daemon per user, and each daemon will hold exclusive control over exactly one USB headset. Each daemon will only accept clients' requests for audio I/O from the user who started the daemon. Do make sure that you disable module-suspend-on-idle, or PulseAudio will actually give up the sound device after a period of inactivity, making it insecure in an untrusted environment.
BTW, if this project is for a commercial interest, you usually pay someone for this kind of in-depth analysis. If you're that someone, you might want to read up on some of the underlying technologies so that you can develop this sort of reasoning on your own. I can envision a very real situation for both the trusted and the untrusted environment, so there is definitely a demand for this kind of specialist. Trusted environments are popular at workplaces, and untrusted multi-seat boxes are popular at computer labs, public libraries, etc.
Any help is really appreciated.
Please let me know if this information was helpful -- it will help me gauge, in turn, whether I should spend my time writing up these sorts of answers on the ML. FWIW, I searched around for existing articles touching this subject, but I couldn't find anyone who addresses this specific issue accurately or in enough detail.
Sean
P.S. - I once spoke to a user on IRC who was having intermittent problems with multiple USB headsets. It turns out that the USB controllers in the computer didn't have enough bandwidth, or power (or both) to allow all of the headsets to play at once. If, after configuring, you run into issues where only so many users can play sound at once, then you should invest in additional PCI or (preferably) PCI-Express USB controllers. Note that adding hubs upstream of a USB controller does absolutely nothing to lessen the load on the USB controllers that are integrated into your motherboard.
Thank in advance,
Jelle
Thank you Sean, this is by far the most extensive response i received in months with an "open" question on an mailinglist, this really is a good character, that I will reward if you sent an paypal address :-p.
I have extensive experience configuring alsa and usb headset, little new info was delivered for me but i think others will really like your response too.
My main issue is how to start alsa when there are no audio cards on the system using debian sid? so i can use bluetooth or hotplug usb audio devices...anybody?
Then I think it will become an udev issue to regulate a fixed group and permissions for usb audio devices. I was kind of hoping somebody had done this kind of udev ruling for usb audio devices and can provide some examples this will save me time...anybody?
PS. I have also noticed usb audio problems (also posted them to irc maybe 1 year ago) in the past with usb hubs and other kinds of things, these things can brake an design or make it:-p
So thank you very much for this great response, and keep up doing this kind of work.
Kind regards,
Jelle
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Jelle de Jong jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Sean McNamara wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Jelle de Jong jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Hello everybody,
I have a four to eighth muliseat debian linux system here and it is missing sound for the users. I was hoping the alsa team can help me with this issue.
All sound issues on Linux are extremely application-specific. Getting sound to work without any specific application in mind is asking for trouble, because there is no single configuration of the sound stack (which, if you expand into historical sound APIs and servers, contains about 20 different ways to play sound) that will satisfy any application without further configuration.
Since this is not a really well-formed question, I will proceed with the assumption that you want to be able to run, for example,
aplay /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
in the console, and have it produce sound in the "appropriate" headset. Here's how you proceed:
- Each person on the multiseat box must have their own UNIX user account.
- Each user account must have an ~/.asoundrc file.
- Each ~/.asoundrc file must redefine the "default" device. How you
redefine it depends on a lot of things: (a) Do you want _direct_ hardware access to the sound card, i.e. one application at a time? (b) Do you want to use ALSA's built-in software mixing, i.e. dmix? (c) How many channels? (d) Do you want to use PulseAudio? (e) Do you want to use JACK? (f) For each USB headset, what is its corresponding "raw device string"? This will be something like hw:n, where n is a number starting from 0, depending on the order in which the USB drivers initialize each USB controller.
All of the above questions, and others, will determine exactly how each user configures their ~/.asoundrc file.
The *extremely naive* (not recommended) example of an ~/.asoundrc is like:
pcm.!default { card 3 }
to have ALSA clients play sound, by default, to the fourth sound device that happened to be initialized.
I have usb headsets and usb audio devices and all users have there own usb hub. There are no internal audio cards in the multiseat server.
How can we configure an system that the user can listen to audio only to the devices connected to his usb hub.
Well, this is guaranteed by design, isn't it? Without physical access to someone else's headset, how would I get access to the audio streams being played to that headset? I don't think this really expresses what your problem is.
If we flip your question around, it might be a little more interesting: "How can we configure a system so that each user's applications will only play audio to that user's corresponding headset?"
You can interpret this question in two ways:
- "How can we _prevent_ users from playing sound to each other's
sound cards?" [mutually untrust[ed/ing] users] or 2. "How can we configure the default settings so that, if untampered with, a user's applications will play sound to that user's own headset and not anyone else's?" [mutually trust[ed/ing] users]
The lack of hardware mixing actually comes back to being a security benefit to user space control in this kind of situation. Recall that if I run
aplay --device=hw:0 /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
then as long as the aplay program is playing sound to hw:0, it is *impossible* (short of some really devious hacking in alsa-lib or the kernel) for another application -- from this user, or another -- to also play sound to hw:0 at the same time. I'll call this claim "No Native SW Mixing".
Now, let's look at what is required to satisfy the question in each of the two above cases.
Trusted:
- We know that users aren't going to maliciously try and hurt one
another's ears by setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. We know that users won't try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it'll stay that way. 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users trust each other, they won't do this. 5. We can use something like dmix, or just use hw:0 if users don't need simultaneous app output, and things will be fine. 6. dmix is a viable option to implement software mixing. 7. PulseAudio is also a viable option to implement software mixing.
Untrusted:
- Users may want to maliciously try and hurt one another's ears by
setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. Users may try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it could get messed up again. [There's not much you can do to prevent this ... at least not based on existing open source tools.] 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users do not trust each other, there is potential for 3 to happen. 5. We must use 'No Native SW Mixing' to our advantage, to create a walled garden around each user's sound experience. We need a process that, once started by a user, will permanently "hog" the sound card that user wants to use. This process should, ideally, allow other processes run by that user (and by that user only) to access their USB headset for output or input. We need a "gatekeeper" that is sensitive to the context in which an app is being run. 6. dmix is a NOT viable option to implement software mixing, because: (a) Once all dmix applications close their streams, the audio device hw:n is available, and some malicious user can decide to acquire it, abuse it, and prevent its rightful user from accessing it with his own applications. (b) dmix does not restrict users from outputting sound based on their UID or session. It is NOT a gatekeeper, just an open gate. 7. PulseAudio is [perhaps the best] viable solution to implement software mixing for each respective user. It is also a viable solution to preventing users from taking control of one another's sound devices.
Configuring pulseaudio for a multi-soundcard multi-user system is out of the scope of this mailing list, but suffice it to say that it can be done. You will want to run one PulseAudio daemon per user, and each daemon will hold exclusive control over exactly one USB headset. Each daemon will only accept clients' requests for audio I/O from the user who started the daemon. Do make sure that you disable module-suspend-on-idle, or PulseAudio will actually give up the sound device after a period of inactivity, making it insecure in an untrusted environment.
BTW, if this project is for a commercial interest, you usually pay someone for this kind of in-depth analysis. If you're that someone, you might want to read up on some of the underlying technologies so that you can develop this sort of reasoning on your own. I can envision a very real situation for both the trusted and the untrusted environment, so there is definitely a demand for this kind of specialist. Trusted environments are popular at workplaces, and untrusted multi-seat boxes are popular at computer labs, public libraries, etc.
Any help is really appreciated.
Please let me know if this information was helpful -- it will help me gauge, in turn, whether I should spend my time writing up these sorts of answers on the ML. FWIW, I searched around for existing articles touching this subject, but I couldn't find anyone who addresses this specific issue accurately or in enough detail.
Sean
P.S. - I once spoke to a user on IRC who was having intermittent problems with multiple USB headsets. It turns out that the USB controllers in the computer didn't have enough bandwidth, or power (or both) to allow all of the headsets to play at once. If, after configuring, you run into issues where only so many users can play sound at once, then you should invest in additional PCI or (preferably) PCI-Express USB controllers. Note that adding hubs upstream of a USB controller does absolutely nothing to lessen the load on the USB controllers that are integrated into your motherboard.
Thank in advance,
Jelle
Thank you Sean, this is by far the most extensive response i received in months with an "open" question on an mailinglist, this really is a good character, that I will reward if you sent an paypal address :-p.
Ha ha, I appreciate the offer :) Yes, it was a very open question; that's why I didn't want to assume too much about your knowledge, and to answer you with something that would point you in the right direction if you were, in fact, ignorant of the basic situation here.
I have extensive experience configuring alsa and usb headset, little new info was delivered for me but i think others will really like your response too.
My main issue is how to start alsa when there are no audio cards on the system using debian sid? so i can use bluetooth or hotplug usb audio devices...anybody?
A "quick hack" would be to add 'snd' and 'soundcore' (and maybe other) kernel modules to /etc/modules. That way, on boot, ALSA will be in the kernel even if the initial probing routines don't find any sound hardware. Then, as long as your bluetooth and USB modules are loading correctly, the hotplug support should take over from there if your ALSA is recent enough.
Then I think it will become an udev issue to regulate a fixed group and permissions for usb audio devices. I was kind of hoping somebody had done this kind of udev ruling for usb audio devices and can provide some examples this will save me time...anybody?
Yes, definitely a udev issue if you want to restrict things at the ALSA level. Otherwise the permissions on the raw character devices /dev/snd/pcm* will be liberal by default.
But if you're willing to move up into application space, I'm pretty sure one of PulseAudio's advertised features is to handle just this kind of ruling among different users and/or groups. You could certainly set this up so that the PulseAudio daemons for all the users are launched at boot time so that all of the audio devices are [permanently] "hogged" by their appropriate users before anyone has a chance to log in.
And of course, PulseAudio is excellent with hotplug nowadays.
PS. I have also noticed usb audio problems (also posted them to irc maybe 1 year ago) in the past with usb hubs and other kinds of things, these things can brake an design or make it:-p
Yes, the Win32 device manager has a nice little applet that shows the current bandwidth usage/availability for USB controllers... I'm not sure how accurate it is... but having something like this for Linux would be immensely useful as you are setting up the topology of your USB headsets. It would be nice not to have to empirically try and break the sound by playing all of the headsets at once...
So thank you very much for this great response, and keep up doing this kind of work.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Sean
Kind regards,
Jelle
On Thursday 23 October 2008 6:48:18 am Sean McNamara wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Sean McNamara wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Hello everybody,
I have a four to eighth muliseat debian linux system here and it is missing sound for the users. I was hoping the alsa team can help me with this issue.
All sound issues on Linux are extremely application-specific. Getting sound to work without any specific application in mind is asking for trouble, because there is no single configuration of the sound stack (which, if you expand into historical sound APIs and servers, contains about 20 different ways to play sound) that will satisfy any application without further configuration.
Since this is not a really well-formed question, I will proceed with the assumption that you want to be able to run, for example,
aplay /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
in the console, and have it produce sound in the "appropriate" headset. Here's how you proceed:
- Each person on the multiseat box must have their own UNIX user
account. 2. Each user account must have an ~/.asoundrc file. 3. Each ~/.asoundrc file must redefine the "default" device. How you redefine it depends on a lot of things: (a) Do you want _direct_ hardware access to the sound card, i.e. one application at a time? (b) Do you want to use ALSA's built-in software mixing, i.e. dmix? (c) How many channels? (d) Do you want to use PulseAudio? (e) Do you want to use JACK? (f) For each USB headset, what is its corresponding "raw device string"? This will be something like hw:n, where n is a number starting from 0, depending on the order in which the USB drivers initialize each USB controller.
All of the above questions, and others, will determine exactly how each user configures their ~/.asoundrc file.
The *extremely naive* (not recommended) example of an ~/.asoundrc is like:
pcm.!default { card 3 }
Would this not be:
pcm.!default { type hw card 3 }
Also, depending on the order in which they are plugged in, depends on what card number they get assigned. If all USB headsets are the same, you run into more problems telling them apart.
For example, if you plug them in a some random order, card3 might infact be going to the 5th seat of the system..
You will need some way to uniquely identify EACH headset, and force its slot or index parameter to the required number.
to have ALSA clients play sound, by default, to the fourth sound device that happened to be initialized.
I have usb headsets and usb audio devices and all users have there own usb hub. There are no internal audio cards in the multiseat server.
How can we configure an system that the user can listen to audio only to the devices connected to his usb hub.
Well, this is guaranteed by design, isn't it? Without physical access to someone else's headset, how would I get access to the audio streams being played to that headset? I don't think this really expresses what your problem is.
If we flip your question around, it might be a little more interesting: "How can we configure a system so that each user's applications will only play audio to that user's corresponding headset?"
You can interpret this question in two ways:
- "How can we _prevent_ users from playing sound to each other's
sound cards?" [mutually untrust[ed/ing] users] or 2. "How can we configure the default settings so that, if untampered with, a user's applications will play sound to that user's own headset and not anyone else's?" [mutually trust[ed/ing] users]
The lack of hardware mixing actually comes back to being a security benefit to user space control in this kind of situation. Recall that if I run
aplay --device=hw:0 /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
Couldn't we allow dmix, but just append to the users UID to the ipc key, with:
ipc_key 123456 ipc_key_add_uid true
in the dmix config stanza in .asoundrc for each user ?
then as long as the aplay program is playing sound to hw:0, it is *impossible* (short of some really devious hacking in alsa-lib or the kernel) for another application -- from this user, or another -- to also play sound to hw:0 at the same time. I'll call this claim "No Native SW Mixing".
Now, let's look at what is required to satisfy the question in each of the two above cases.
Trusted:
- We know that users aren't going to maliciously try and hurt one
another's ears by setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. We know that users won't try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it'll stay that way. 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users trust each other, they won't do this. 5. We can use something like dmix, or just use hw:0 if users don't need simultaneous app output, and things will be fine. 6. dmix is a viable option to implement software mixing. 7. PulseAudio is also a viable option to implement software mixing.
Untrusted:
- Users may want to maliciously try and hurt one another's ears by
setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. Users may try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it could get messed up again. [There's not much you can do to prevent this ... at least not based on existing open source tools.] 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users do not trust each other, there is potential for 3 to happen. 5. We must use 'No Native SW Mixing' to our advantage, to create a walled garden around each user's sound experience. We need a process that, once started by a user, will permanently "hog" the sound card that user wants to use. This process should, ideally, allow other processes run by that user (and by that user only) to access their USB headset for output or input. We need a "gatekeeper" that is sensitive to the context in which an app is being run. 6. dmix is a NOT viable option to implement software mixing, because: (a) Once all dmix applications close their streams, the audio device hw:n is available, and some malicious user can decide to acquire it, abuse it, and prevent its rightful user from accessing it with his own applications. (b) dmix does not restrict users from outputting sound based on their UID or session. It is NOT a gatekeeper, just an open gate. 7. PulseAudio is [perhaps the best] viable solution to implement software mixing for each respective user. It is also a viable solution to preventing users from taking control of one another's sound devices.
Configuring pulseaudio for a multi-soundcard multi-user system is out of the scope of this mailing list, but suffice it to say that it can be done. You will want to run one PulseAudio daemon per user, and each daemon will hold exclusive control over exactly one USB headset. Each daemon will only accept clients' requests for audio I/O from the user who started the daemon. Do make sure that you disable module-suspend-on-idle, or PulseAudio will actually give up the sound device after a period of inactivity, making it insecure in an untrusted environment.
BTW, if this project is for a commercial interest, you usually pay someone for this kind of in-depth analysis. If you're that someone, you might want to read up on some of the underlying technologies so that you can develop this sort of reasoning on your own. I can envision a very real situation for both the trusted and the untrusted environment, so there is definitely a demand for this kind of specialist. Trusted environments are popular at workplaces, and untrusted multi-seat boxes are popular at computer labs, public libraries, etc.
Any help is really appreciated.
Please let me know if this information was helpful -- it will help me gauge, in turn, whether I should spend my time writing up these sorts of answers on the ML. FWIW, I searched around for existing articles touching this subject, but I couldn't find anyone who addresses this specific issue accurately or in enough detail.
Sean
P.S. - I once spoke to a user on IRC who was having intermittent problems with multiple USB headsets. It turns out that the USB controllers in the computer didn't have enough bandwidth, or power (or both) to allow all of the headsets to play at once. If, after configuring, you run into issues where only so many users can play sound at once, then you should invest in additional PCI or (preferably) PCI-Express USB controllers. Note that adding hubs upstream of a USB controller does absolutely nothing to lessen the load on the USB controllers that are integrated into your motherboard.
Thank in advance,
Jelle
Thank you Sean, this is by far the most extensive response i received in months with an "open" question on an mailinglist, this really is a good character, that I will reward if you sent an paypal address :-p.
Ha ha, I appreciate the offer :) Yes, it was a very open question; that's why I didn't want to assume too much about your knowledge, and to answer you with something that would point you in the right direction if you were, in fact, ignorant of the basic situation here.
I have extensive experience configuring alsa and usb headset, little new info was delivered for me but i think others will really like your response too.
My main issue is how to start alsa when there are no audio cards on the system using debian sid? so i can use bluetooth or hotplug usb audio devices...anybody?
A "quick hack" would be to add 'snd' and 'soundcore' (and maybe other) kernel modules to /etc/modules. That way, on boot, ALSA will be in the kernel even if the initial probing routines don't find any sound hardware. Then, as long as your bluetooth and USB modules are loading correctly, the hotplug support should take over from there if your ALSA is recent enough.
Then I think it will become an udev issue to regulate a fixed group and permissions for usb audio devices. I was kind of hoping somebody had done this kind of udev ruling for usb audio devices and can provide some examples this will save me time...anybody?
Yes, definitely a udev issue if you want to restrict things at the ALSA level. Otherwise the permissions on the raw character devices /dev/snd/pcm* will be liberal by default.
But if you're willing to move up into application space, I'm pretty sure one of PulseAudio's advertised features is to handle just this kind of ruling among different users and/or groups. You could certainly set this up so that the PulseAudio daemons for all the users are launched at boot time so that all of the audio devices are [permanently] "hogged" by their appropriate users before anyone has a chance to log in.
And of course, PulseAudio is excellent with hotplug nowadays.
PS. I have also noticed usb audio problems (also posted them to irc maybe 1 year ago) in the past with usb hubs and other kinds of things, these things can brake an design or make it:-p
Yes, the Win32 device manager has a nice little applet that shows the current bandwidth usage/availability for USB controllers... I'm not sure how accurate it is... but having something like this for Linux would be immensely useful as you are setting up the topology of your USB headsets. It would be nice not to have to empirically try and break the sound by playing all of the headsets at once...
So thank you very much for this great response, and keep up doing this kind of work.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Sean
Kind regards,
Jelle
Alsa-devel mailing list Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
Travis Place wrote:
On Thursday 23 October 2008 6:48:18 am Sean McNamara wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Sean McNamara wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Hello everybody,
I have a four to eighth muliseat debian linux system here and it is missing sound for the users. I was hoping the alsa team can help me with this issue.
All sound issues on Linux are extremely application-specific. Getting sound to work without any specific application in mind is asking for trouble, because there is no single configuration of the sound stack (which, if you expand into historical sound APIs and servers, contains about 20 different ways to play sound) that will satisfy any application without further configuration.
Since this is not a really well-formed question, I will proceed with the assumption that you want to be able to run, for example,
aplay /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
in the console, and have it produce sound in the "appropriate" headset. Here's how you proceed:
- Each person on the multiseat box must have their own UNIX user
account. 2. Each user account must have an ~/.asoundrc file. 3. Each ~/.asoundrc file must redefine the "default" device. How you redefine it depends on a lot of things: (a) Do you want _direct_ hardware access to the sound card, i.e. one application at a time? (b) Do you want to use ALSA's built-in software mixing, i.e. dmix? (c) How many channels? (d) Do you want to use PulseAudio? (e) Do you want to use JACK? (f) For each USB headset, what is its corresponding "raw device string"? This will be something like hw:n, where n is a number starting from 0, depending on the order in which the USB drivers initialize each USB controller.
All of the above questions, and others, will determine exactly how each user configures their ~/.asoundrc file.
The *extremely naive* (not recommended) example of an ~/.asoundrc is like:
pcm.!default { card 3 }
Would this not be:
pcm.!default { type hw card 3 }
Also, depending on the order in which they are plugged in, depends on what card number they get assigned. If all USB headsets are the same, you run into more problems telling them apart.
For example, if you plug them in a some random order, card3 might infact be going to the 5th seat of the system..
You will need some way to uniquely identify EACH headset, and force its slot or index parameter to the required number.
OK here we go, every usb device has an unique ID in his usb tree, this is the benefit of using usb devices. I am going to provide an example how this works with identical usb mouse and keyboards.
ls -hal /dev/input/by-path/ pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event13 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event15 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:3.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event4 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:3.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event6 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event7 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event9
and then we can attached each input device to an specific task: Driver "evdev" Option "Path" "/././by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.1:1.0-event-kbd"
current system: cat /proc/asound/card
needed wanted requested system: /proc/asound/by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card or /dev/audio/by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card
and then in the users,
.asoundrc
pcm.!default { type hw card-bypath "/.../.../by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card" }
So hereby my feature request, is this possible and well achievable, what would it take?
Best regards,
Jelle
to have ALSA clients play sound, by default, to the fourth sound device that happened to be initialized.
I have usb headsets and usb audio devices and all users have there own usb hub. There are no internal audio cards in the multiseat server.
How can we configure an system that the user can listen to audio only to the devices connected to his usb hub.
Well, this is guaranteed by design, isn't it? Without physical access to someone else's headset, how would I get access to the audio streams being played to that headset? I don't think this really expresses what your problem is.
If we flip your question around, it might be a little more interesting: "How can we configure a system so that each user's applications will only play audio to that user's corresponding headset?"
You can interpret this question in two ways:
- "How can we _prevent_ users from playing sound to each other's
sound cards?" [mutually untrust[ed/ing] users] or 2. "How can we configure the default settings so that, if untampered with, a user's applications will play sound to that user's own headset and not anyone else's?" [mutually trust[ed/ing] users]
The lack of hardware mixing actually comes back to being a security benefit to user space control in this kind of situation. Recall that if I run
aplay --device=hw:0 /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
Couldn't we allow dmix, but just append to the users UID to the ipc key, with:
ipc_key 123456 ipc_key_add_uid true
in the dmix config stanza in .asoundrc for each user ?
then as long as the aplay program is playing sound to hw:0, it is *impossible* (short of some really devious hacking in alsa-lib or the kernel) for another application -- from this user, or another -- to also play sound to hw:0 at the same time. I'll call this claim "No Native SW Mixing".
Now, let's look at what is required to satisfy the question in each of the two above cases.
Trusted:
- We know that users aren't going to maliciously try and hurt one
another's ears by setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. We know that users won't try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it'll stay that way. 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users trust each other, they won't do this. 5. We can use something like dmix, or just use hw:0 if users don't need simultaneous app output, and things will be fine. 6. dmix is a viable option to implement software mixing. 7. PulseAudio is also a viable option to implement software mixing.
Untrusted:
- Users may want to maliciously try and hurt one another's ears by
setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. Users may try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it could get messed up again. [There's not much you can do to prevent this ... at least not based on existing open source tools.] 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users do not trust each other, there is potential for 3 to happen. 5. We must use 'No Native SW Mixing' to our advantage, to create a walled garden around each user's sound experience. We need a process that, once started by a user, will permanently "hog" the sound card that user wants to use. This process should, ideally, allow other processes run by that user (and by that user only) to access their USB headset for output or input. We need a "gatekeeper" that is sensitive to the context in which an app is being run. 6. dmix is a NOT viable option to implement software mixing, because: (a) Once all dmix applications close their streams, the audio device hw:n is available, and some malicious user can decide to acquire it, abuse it, and prevent its rightful user from accessing it with his own applications. (b) dmix does not restrict users from outputting sound based on their UID or session. It is NOT a gatekeeper, just an open gate. 7. PulseAudio is [perhaps the best] viable solution to implement software mixing for each respective user. It is also a viable solution to preventing users from taking control of one another's sound devices.
Configuring pulseaudio for a multi-soundcard multi-user system is out of the scope of this mailing list, but suffice it to say that it can be done. You will want to run one PulseAudio daemon per user, and each daemon will hold exclusive control over exactly one USB headset. Each daemon will only accept clients' requests for audio I/O from the user who started the daemon. Do make sure that you disable module-suspend-on-idle, or PulseAudio will actually give up the sound device after a period of inactivity, making it insecure in an untrusted environment.
BTW, if this project is for a commercial interest, you usually pay someone for this kind of in-depth analysis. If you're that someone, you might want to read up on some of the underlying technologies so that you can develop this sort of reasoning on your own. I can envision a very real situation for both the trusted and the untrusted environment, so there is definitely a demand for this kind of specialist. Trusted environments are popular at workplaces, and untrusted multi-seat boxes are popular at computer labs, public libraries, etc.
Any help is really appreciated.
Please let me know if this information was helpful -- it will help me gauge, in turn, whether I should spend my time writing up these sorts of answers on the ML. FWIW, I searched around for existing articles touching this subject, but I couldn't find anyone who addresses this specific issue accurately or in enough detail.
Sean
P.S. - I once spoke to a user on IRC who was having intermittent problems with multiple USB headsets. It turns out that the USB controllers in the computer didn't have enough bandwidth, or power (or both) to allow all of the headsets to play at once. If, after configuring, you run into issues where only so many users can play sound at once, then you should invest in additional PCI or (preferably) PCI-Express USB controllers. Note that adding hubs upstream of a USB controller does absolutely nothing to lessen the load on the USB controllers that are integrated into your motherboard.
Thank in advance,
Jelle
Thank you Sean, this is by far the most extensive response i received in months with an "open" question on an mailinglist, this really is a good character, that I will reward if you sent an paypal address :-p.
Ha ha, I appreciate the offer :) Yes, it was a very open question; that's why I didn't want to assume too much about your knowledge, and to answer you with something that would point you in the right direction if you were, in fact, ignorant of the basic situation here.
I have extensive experience configuring alsa and usb headset, little new info was delivered for me but i think others will really like your response too.
My main issue is how to start alsa when there are no audio cards on the system using debian sid? so i can use bluetooth or hotplug usb audio devices...anybody?
A "quick hack" would be to add 'snd' and 'soundcore' (and maybe other) kernel modules to /etc/modules. That way, on boot, ALSA will be in the kernel even if the initial probing routines don't find any sound hardware. Then, as long as your bluetooth and USB modules are loading correctly, the hotplug support should take over from there if your ALSA is recent enough.
Then I think it will become an udev issue to regulate a fixed group and permissions for usb audio devices. I was kind of hoping somebody had done this kind of udev ruling for usb audio devices and can provide some examples this will save me time...anybody?
Yes, definitely a udev issue if you want to restrict things at the ALSA level. Otherwise the permissions on the raw character devices /dev/snd/pcm* will be liberal by default.
But if you're willing to move up into application space, I'm pretty sure one of PulseAudio's advertised features is to handle just this kind of ruling among different users and/or groups. You could certainly set this up so that the PulseAudio daemons for all the users are launched at boot time so that all of the audio devices are [permanently] "hogged" by their appropriate users before anyone has a chance to log in.
And of course, PulseAudio is excellent with hotplug nowadays.
PS. I have also noticed usb audio problems (also posted them to irc maybe 1 year ago) in the past with usb hubs and other kinds of things, these things can brake an design or make it:-p
Yes, the Win32 device manager has a nice little applet that shows the current bandwidth usage/availability for USB controllers... I'm not sure how accurate it is... but having something like this for Linux would be immensely useful as you are setting up the topology of your USB headsets. It would be nice not to have to empirically try and break the sound by playing all of the headsets at once...
So thank you very much for this great response, and keep up doing this kind of work.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Sean
Kind regards,
Jelle
Ok
Jelle de Jong wrote:
Travis Place wrote:
On Thursday 23 October 2008 6:48:18 am Sean McNamara wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Sean McNamara wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Hello everybody,
I have a four to eighth muliseat debian linux system here and it is missing sound for the users. I was hoping the alsa team can help me with this issue.
All sound issues on Linux are extremely application-specific. Getting sound to work without any specific application in mind is asking for trouble, because there is no single configuration of the sound stack (which, if you expand into historical sound APIs and servers, contains about 20 different ways to play sound) that will satisfy any application without further configuration.
Since this is not a really well-formed question, I will proceed with the assumption that you want to be able to run, for example,
aplay /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
in the console, and have it produce sound in the "appropriate" headset. Here's how you proceed:
- Each person on the multiseat box must have their own UNIX user
account. 2. Each user account must have an ~/.asoundrc file. 3. Each ~/.asoundrc file must redefine the "default" device. How you redefine it depends on a lot of things: (a) Do you want _direct_ hardware access to the sound card, i.e. one application at a time? (b) Do you want to use ALSA's built-in software mixing, i.e. dmix? (c) How many channels? (d) Do you want to use PulseAudio? (e) Do you want to use JACK? (f) For each USB headset, what is its corresponding "raw device string"? This will be something like hw:n, where n is a number starting from 0, depending on the order in which the USB drivers initialize each USB controller.
All of the above questions, and others, will determine exactly how each user configures their ~/.asoundrc file.
The *extremely naive* (not recommended) example of an ~/.asoundrc is like:
pcm.!default { card 3 }
Would this not be:
pcm.!default { type hw card 3 }
Also, depending on the order in which they are plugged in, depends on what card number they get assigned. If all USB headsets are the same, you run into more problems telling them apart.
For example, if you plug them in a some random order, card3 might infact be going to the 5th seat of the system..
You will need some way to uniquely identify EACH headset, and force its slot or index parameter to the required number.
OK here we go, every usb device has an unique ID in his usb tree, this is the benefit of using usb devices. I am going to provide an example how this works with identical usb mouse and keyboards.
ls -hal /dev/input/by-path/ pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event13 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event15 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:3.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event4 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:3.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event6 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event7 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event9
and then we can attached each input device to an specific task: Driver "evdev" Option "Path" "/././by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.1:1.0-event-kbd"
current system: cat /proc/asound/card
needed wanted requested system: /proc/asound/by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card or /dev/audio/by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card
and then in the users,
.asoundrc
pcm.!default { type hw card-bypath "/.../.../by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card" }
So hereby my feature request, is this possible and well achievable, what would it take?
Best regards,
Jelle
to have ALSA clients play sound, by default, to the fourth sound device that happened to be initialized.
I have usb headsets and usb audio devices and all users have there own usb hub. There are no internal audio cards in the multiseat server.
How can we configure an system that the user can listen to audio only to the devices connected to his usb hub.
Well, this is guaranteed by design, isn't it? Without physical access to someone else's headset, how would I get access to the audio streams being played to that headset? I don't think this really expresses what your problem is.
If we flip your question around, it might be a little more interesting: "How can we configure a system so that each user's applications will only play audio to that user's corresponding headset?"
You can interpret this question in two ways:
- "How can we _prevent_ users from playing sound to each other's
sound cards?" [mutually untrust[ed/ing] users] or 2. "How can we configure the default settings so that, if untampered with, a user's applications will play sound to that user's own headset and not anyone else's?" [mutually trust[ed/ing] users]
The lack of hardware mixing actually comes back to being a security benefit to user space control in this kind of situation. Recall that if I run
aplay --device=hw:0 /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
Couldn't we allow dmix, but just append to the users UID to the ipc key, with:
ipc_key 123456 ipc_key_add_uid true
in the dmix config stanza in .asoundrc for each user ?
Would it be possible to use udev to create specific cardX nodes that can be used in the .asoundrc? /proc/asound/cardX
I have looked at some udev rules but hey seem to be for oss devices or am I mistaken?
/etc/udev/rules.d/50-udev.rules
# ALSA devices KERNEL=="controlC[0-9]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="hwC[D0-9]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="pcmC[D0-9cp]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="midiC[D0-9]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="timer", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="seq", NAME="snd/%k"
KERNEL=="snd", SUBSYSTEM=="module", ACTION=="add", \ RUN+="/bin/ln -sf /proc/asound/oss/sndstat $root/sndstat"
Kind regards,
Jelle
then as long as the aplay program is playing sound to hw:0, it is *impossible* (short of some really devious hacking in alsa-lib or the kernel) for another application -- from this user, or another -- to also play sound to hw:0 at the same time. I'll call this claim "No Native SW Mixing".
Now, let's look at what is required to satisfy the question in each of the two above cases.
Trusted:
- We know that users aren't going to maliciously try and hurt one
another's ears by setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. We know that users won't try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it'll stay that way. 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users trust each other, they won't do this. 5. We can use something like dmix, or just use hw:0 if users don't need simultaneous app output, and things will be fine. 6. dmix is a viable option to implement software mixing. 7. PulseAudio is also a viable option to implement software mixing.
Untrusted:
- Users may want to maliciously try and hurt one another's ears by
setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. Users may try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it could get messed up again. [There's not much you can do to prevent this ... at least not based on existing open source tools.] 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users do not trust each other, there is potential for 3 to happen. 5. We must use 'No Native SW Mixing' to our advantage, to create a walled garden around each user's sound experience. We need a process that, once started by a user, will permanently "hog" the sound card that user wants to use. This process should, ideally, allow other processes run by that user (and by that user only) to access their USB headset for output or input. We need a "gatekeeper" that is sensitive to the context in which an app is being run. 6. dmix is a NOT viable option to implement software mixing, because: (a) Once all dmix applications close their streams, the audio device hw:n is available, and some malicious user can decide to acquire it, abuse it, and prevent its rightful user from accessing it with his own applications. (b) dmix does not restrict users from outputting sound based on their UID or session. It is NOT a gatekeeper, just an open gate. 7. PulseAudio is [perhaps the best] viable solution to implement software mixing for each respective user. It is also a viable solution to preventing users from taking control of one another's sound devices.
Configuring pulseaudio for a multi-soundcard multi-user system is out of the scope of this mailing list, but suffice it to say that it can be done. You will want to run one PulseAudio daemon per user, and each daemon will hold exclusive control over exactly one USB headset. Each daemon will only accept clients' requests for audio I/O from the user who started the daemon. Do make sure that you disable module-suspend-on-idle, or PulseAudio will actually give up the sound device after a period of inactivity, making it insecure in an untrusted environment.
BTW, if this project is for a commercial interest, you usually pay someone for this kind of in-depth analysis. If you're that someone, you might want to read up on some of the underlying technologies so that you can develop this sort of reasoning on your own. I can envision a very real situation for both the trusted and the untrusted environment, so there is definitely a demand for this kind of specialist. Trusted environments are popular at workplaces, and untrusted multi-seat boxes are popular at computer labs, public libraries, etc.
Any help is really appreciated.
Please let me know if this information was helpful -- it will help me gauge, in turn, whether I should spend my time writing up these sorts of answers on the ML. FWIW, I searched around for existing articles touching this subject, but I couldn't find anyone who addresses this specific issue accurately or in enough detail.
Sean
P.S. - I once spoke to a user on IRC who was having intermittent problems with multiple USB headsets. It turns out that the USB controllers in the computer didn't have enough bandwidth, or power (or both) to allow all of the headsets to play at once. If, after configuring, you run into issues where only so many users can play sound at once, then you should invest in additional PCI or (preferably) PCI-Express USB controllers. Note that adding hubs upstream of a USB controller does absolutely nothing to lessen the load on the USB controllers that are integrated into your motherboard.
Thank in advance,
Jelle
Thank you Sean, this is by far the most extensive response i received in months with an "open" question on an mailinglist, this really is a good character, that I will reward if you sent an paypal address :-p.
Ha ha, I appreciate the offer :) Yes, it was a very open question; that's why I didn't want to assume too much about your knowledge, and to answer you with something that would point you in the right direction if you were, in fact, ignorant of the basic situation here.
I have extensive experience configuring alsa and usb headset, little new info was delivered for me but i think others will really like your response too.
My main issue is how to start alsa when there are no audio cards on the system using debian sid? so i can use bluetooth or hotplug usb audio devices...anybody?
A "quick hack" would be to add 'snd' and 'soundcore' (and maybe other) kernel modules to /etc/modules. That way, on boot, ALSA will be in the kernel even if the initial probing routines don't find any sound hardware. Then, as long as your bluetooth and USB modules are loading correctly, the hotplug support should take over from there if your ALSA is recent enough.
Then I think it will become an udev issue to regulate a fixed group and permissions for usb audio devices. I was kind of hoping somebody had done this kind of udev ruling for usb audio devices and can provide some examples this will save me time...anybody?
Yes, definitely a udev issue if you want to restrict things at the ALSA level. Otherwise the permissions on the raw character devices /dev/snd/pcm* will be liberal by default.
But if you're willing to move up into application space, I'm pretty sure one of PulseAudio's advertised features is to handle just this kind of ruling among different users and/or groups. You could certainly set this up so that the PulseAudio daemons for all the users are launched at boot time so that all of the audio devices are [permanently] "hogged" by their appropriate users before anyone has a chance to log in.
And of course, PulseAudio is excellent with hotplug nowadays.
PS. I have also noticed usb audio problems (also posted them to irc maybe 1 year ago) in the past with usb hubs and other kinds of things, these things can brake an design or make it:-p
Yes, the Win32 device manager has a nice little applet that shows the current bandwidth usage/availability for USB controllers... I'm not sure how accurate it is... but having something like this for Linux would be immensely useful as you are setting up the topology of your USB headsets. It would be nice not to have to empirically try and break the sound by playing all of the headsets at once...
So thank you very much for this great response, and keep up doing this kind of work.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Sean
Kind regards,
Jelle
Jelle de Jong wrote:
Jelle de Jong wrote:
Travis Place wrote:
On Thursday 23 October 2008 6:48:18 am Sean McNamara wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote:
Sean McNamara wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Jelle de Jong
jelledejong@powercraft.nl wrote: > Hello everybody, > > I have a four to eighth muliseat debian linux system here and it is > missing sound for the users. I was hoping the alsa team can help me > with this issue. All sound issues on Linux are extremely application-specific. Getting sound to work without any specific application in mind is asking for trouble, because there is no single configuration of the sound stack (which, if you expand into historical sound APIs and servers, contains about 20 different ways to play sound) that will satisfy any application without further configuration.
Since this is not a really well-formed question, I will proceed with the assumption that you want to be able to run, for example,
aplay /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
in the console, and have it produce sound in the "appropriate" headset. Here's how you proceed:
- Each person on the multiseat box must have their own UNIX user
account. 2. Each user account must have an ~/.asoundrc file. 3. Each ~/.asoundrc file must redefine the "default" device. How you redefine it depends on a lot of things: (a) Do you want _direct_ hardware access to the sound card, i.e. one application at a time? (b) Do you want to use ALSA's built-in software mixing, i.e. dmix? (c) How many channels? (d) Do you want to use PulseAudio? (e) Do you want to use JACK? (f) For each USB headset, what is its corresponding "raw device string"? This will be something like hw:n, where n is a number starting from 0, depending on the order in which the USB drivers initialize each USB controller.
All of the above questions, and others, will determine exactly how each user configures their ~/.asoundrc file.
The *extremely naive* (not recommended) example of an ~/.asoundrc is like:
pcm.!default { card 3 }
Would this not be:
pcm.!default { type hw card 3 }
Also, depending on the order in which they are plugged in, depends on what card number they get assigned. If all USB headsets are the same, you run into more problems telling them apart.
For example, if you plug them in a some random order, card3 might infact be going to the 5th seat of the system..
You will need some way to uniquely identify EACH headset, and force its slot or index parameter to the required number.
OK here we go, every usb device has an unique ID in his usb tree, this is the benefit of using usb devices. I am going to provide an example how this works with identical usb mouse and keyboards.
ls -hal /dev/input/by-path/ pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event13 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event15 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:3.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event4 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:3.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event6 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.1:1.0-event-kbd -> ../event7 pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.2:1.0-event-mouse -> ../event9
and then we can attached each input device to an specific task: Driver "evdev" Option "Path" "/././by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:10.1:1.0-event-kbd"
current system: cat /proc/asound/card
needed wanted requested system: /proc/asound/by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card or /dev/audio/by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card
and then in the users,
.asoundrc
pcm.!default { type hw card-bypath "/.../.../by-path/pci-0000:00:13.5-usb-0:4.3:1.0-card" }
So hereby my feature request, is this possible and well achievable, what would it take?
Best regards,
Jelle
to have ALSA clients play sound, by default, to the fourth sound device that happened to be initialized.
> I have usb headsets and usb audio devices and all users have there own > usb hub. There are no internal audio cards in the multiseat server. > > How can we configure an system that the user can listen to audio only > to the devices connected to his usb hub. Well, this is guaranteed by design, isn't it? Without physical access to someone else's headset, how would I get access to the audio streams being played to that headset? I don't think this really expresses what your problem is.
If we flip your question around, it might be a little more interesting: "How can we configure a system so that each user's applications will only play audio to that user's corresponding headset?"
You can interpret this question in two ways:
- "How can we _prevent_ users from playing sound to each other's
sound cards?" [mutually untrust[ed/ing] users] or 2. "How can we configure the default settings so that, if untampered with, a user's applications will play sound to that user's own headset and not anyone else's?" [mutually trust[ed/ing] users]
The lack of hardware mixing actually comes back to being a security benefit to user space control in this kind of situation. Recall that if I run
aplay --device=hw:0 /usr/share/sounds/pop.wav
Couldn't we allow dmix, but just append to the users UID to the ipc key, with:
ipc_key 123456 ipc_key_add_uid true
in the dmix config stanza in .asoundrc for each user ?
Would it be possible to use udev to create specific cardX nodes that can be used in the .asoundrc? /proc/asound/cardX
I have looked at some udev rules but hey seem to be for oss devices or am I mistaken?
/etc/udev/rules.d/50-udev.rules
# ALSA devices KERNEL=="controlC[0-9]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="hwC[D0-9]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="pcmC[D0-9cp]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="midiC[D0-9]*", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="timer", NAME="snd/%k" KERNEL=="seq", NAME="snd/%k"
KERNEL=="snd", SUBSYSTEM=="module", ACTION=="add", \ RUN+="/bin/ln -sf /proc/asound/oss/sndstat $root/sndstat"
Kind regards,
Jelle
I may have found an other possible solution for multiple user audio outputs, but i have no idea how to configure it and to make an audio port avalible for individual users.
It is getting common on newer motherboards to have lots of audio outputs for dolby surround type of configurations meaning 6 or more audio connection jacks to put an speaker in.
If it was somehow possible to separate all these audio outputs into individual devices and connect each one to an user we can have 6 audio outputs and work around lots of problems available with usb audio configurations.
I have seen something about dshare plugin that might be able to do this, but I have no idea how this works or how and if it is possible to configure this for multiple users?
Any ideas, solutions?
Thanks in advance,
Jelle
then as long as the aplay program is playing sound to hw:0, it is *impossible* (short of some really devious hacking in alsa-lib or the kernel) for another application -- from this user, or another -- to also play sound to hw:0 at the same time. I'll call this claim "No Native SW Mixing".
Now, let's look at what is required to satisfy the question in each of the two above cases.
Trusted:
- We know that users aren't going to maliciously try and hurt one
another's ears by setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. We know that users won't try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it'll stay that way. 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users trust each other, they won't do this. 5. We can use something like dmix, or just use hw:0 if users don't need simultaneous app output, and things will be fine. 6. dmix is a viable option to implement software mixing. 7. PulseAudio is also a viable option to implement software mixing.
Untrusted:
- Users may want to maliciously try and hurt one another's ears by
setting someone else's mixer really loud and playing static to them. 2. Users may try to tamper with eachother's processes or configuration files; once things are configured correctly, it could get messed up again. [There's not much you can do to prevent this ... at least not based on existing open source tools.] 3. By 'No Native SW Mixing', we know that users can *theoretically* hog another user's sound device whenever that user has zero applications currently using it. 4. Since users do not trust each other, there is potential for 3 to happen. 5. We must use 'No Native SW Mixing' to our advantage, to create a walled garden around each user's sound experience. We need a process that, once started by a user, will permanently "hog" the sound card that user wants to use. This process should, ideally, allow other processes run by that user (and by that user only) to access their USB headset for output or input. We need a "gatekeeper" that is sensitive to the context in which an app is being run. 6. dmix is a NOT viable option to implement software mixing, because: (a) Once all dmix applications close their streams, the audio device hw:n is available, and some malicious user can decide to acquire it, abuse it, and prevent its rightful user from accessing it with his own applications. (b) dmix does not restrict users from outputting sound based on their UID or session. It is NOT a gatekeeper, just an open gate. 7. PulseAudio is [perhaps the best] viable solution to implement software mixing for each respective user. It is also a viable solution to preventing users from taking control of one another's sound devices.
Configuring pulseaudio for a multi-soundcard multi-user system is out of the scope of this mailing list, but suffice it to say that it can be done. You will want to run one PulseAudio daemon per user, and each daemon will hold exclusive control over exactly one USB headset. Each daemon will only accept clients' requests for audio I/O from the user who started the daemon. Do make sure that you disable module-suspend-on-idle, or PulseAudio will actually give up the sound device after a period of inactivity, making it insecure in an untrusted environment.
BTW, if this project is for a commercial interest, you usually pay someone for this kind of in-depth analysis. If you're that someone, you might want to read up on some of the underlying technologies so that you can develop this sort of reasoning on your own. I can envision a very real situation for both the trusted and the untrusted environment, so there is definitely a demand for this kind of specialist. Trusted environments are popular at workplaces, and untrusted multi-seat boxes are popular at computer labs, public libraries, etc.
> Any help is really appreciated. Please let me know if this information was helpful -- it will help me gauge, in turn, whether I should spend my time writing up these sorts of answers on the ML. FWIW, I searched around for existing articles touching this subject, but I couldn't find anyone who addresses this specific issue accurately or in enough detail.
Sean
P.S. - I once spoke to a user on IRC who was having intermittent problems with multiple USB headsets. It turns out that the USB controllers in the computer didn't have enough bandwidth, or power (or both) to allow all of the headsets to play at once. If, after configuring, you run into issues where only so many users can play sound at once, then you should invest in additional PCI or (preferably) PCI-Express USB controllers. Note that adding hubs upstream of a USB controller does absolutely nothing to lessen the load on the USB controllers that are integrated into your motherboard.
> Thank in advance, > > Jelle
Thank you Sean, this is by far the most extensive response i received in months with an "open" question on an mailinglist, this really is a good character, that I will reward if you sent an paypal address :-p.
Ha ha, I appreciate the offer :) Yes, it was a very open question; that's why I didn't want to assume too much about your knowledge, and to answer you with something that would point you in the right direction if you were, in fact, ignorant of the basic situation here.
I have extensive experience configuring alsa and usb headset, little new info was delivered for me but i think others will really like your response too.
My main issue is how to start alsa when there are no audio cards on the system using debian sid? so i can use bluetooth or hotplug usb audio devices...anybody?
A "quick hack" would be to add 'snd' and 'soundcore' (and maybe other) kernel modules to /etc/modules. That way, on boot, ALSA will be in the kernel even if the initial probing routines don't find any sound hardware. Then, as long as your bluetooth and USB modules are loading correctly, the hotplug support should take over from there if your ALSA is recent enough.
Then I think it will become an udev issue to regulate a fixed group and permissions for usb audio devices. I was kind of hoping somebody had done this kind of udev ruling for usb audio devices and can provide some examples this will save me time...anybody?
Yes, definitely a udev issue if you want to restrict things at the ALSA level. Otherwise the permissions on the raw character devices /dev/snd/pcm* will be liberal by default.
But if you're willing to move up into application space, I'm pretty sure one of PulseAudio's advertised features is to handle just this kind of ruling among different users and/or groups. You could certainly set this up so that the PulseAudio daemons for all the users are launched at boot time so that all of the audio devices are [permanently] "hogged" by their appropriate users before anyone has a chance to log in.
And of course, PulseAudio is excellent with hotplug nowadays.
PS. I have also noticed usb audio problems (also posted them to irc maybe 1 year ago) in the past with usb hubs and other kinds of things, these things can brake an design or make it:-p
Yes, the Win32 device manager has a nice little applet that shows the current bandwidth usage/availability for USB controllers... I'm not sure how accurate it is... but having something like this for Linux would be immensely useful as you are setting up the topology of your USB headsets. It would be nice not to have to empirically try and break the sound by playing all of the headsets at once...
So thank you very much for this great response, and keep up doing this kind of work.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Sean
Kind regards,
Jelle
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participants (3)
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Jelle de Jong -
Sean McNamara -
Travis Place