On Mon, 04 Apr 2016 11:05:43 +0200, George Dunlap wrote:
On 02/04/16 13:57, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:33 PM, Takashi Iwai tiwai@suse.de wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 00:28:31 +0200, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
If the former, could a we somehow detect an emulated device other than through this type of check ? Or could we *add* a capability of some sort to detect it on the driver ? This would not address the removal, but it could mean finding a way to address emulation issues.
If its an IO issue -- exactly what is the causing the delays in IO ?
Luis, there is no problem about emulation itself. It's rather an optimization to lighten the host side load, as I/O access on a VM is much heavier.
> This is satisfied mostly only on VM, and can't > be measured easily unlike the IO read speed.
Interesting, note the original patch claimed it was for KVM and Parallels hypervisor only, but since the code uses:
+#if defined(__i386__) || defined(__x86_64__)
inside_vm = inside_vm || boot_cpu_has(X86_FEATURE_HYPERVISOR);+#endif
This makes it apply also to Xen as well, this makes this hack more broad, but does is it only applicable when an emulated device is used ? What about if a hypervisor is used and PCI passthrough is used ?
A good question. Xen was added there at the time from positive results by quick tests, but it might show an issue if it's running on a very old chip with PCI passthrough. But I'm not sure whether PCI passthrough would work on such old chipsets at all.
If it did have an issue then that would have to be special cased, that is the module parameter would not need to be enabled for such type of systems, and heuristics would be needed. As you note, fortunately this may not be common though...
Actually this *is* module parametered. If set to a boolean value, it can be applied / skipped forcibly. So, if there has been a problem on Xen, this should have been reported. That's why I wrote it's no common case. This comes from the real experience.
but if this type of work around may be taken as a precedent to enable other types of hacks in other drivers I'm very fearful of more hacks later needing these considerations as well.
>> There are a pile of nonsensical "are we in a VM" checks of various >> sorts scattered throughout the kernel, they're all a mess to maintain >> (there are lots of kinds of VMs in the world, and Linux may not even >> know it's a guest), and, in most cases, it appears that the correct >> solution is to delete the checks. I just removed a nasty one in the >> x86_32 entry asm, and this one is written in C so it should be a piece >> of cake :) > > This cake looks sweet, but a worm is hidden behind the cream. > The loop in the code itself is already a kludge for the buggy hardware > where the inconsistent read happens not so often (only at the boundary > and in a racy way). It would be nice if we can have a more reliably > way to know the hardware buggyness, but it's difficult, > unsurprisingly.
The concern here is setting precedents for VM cases sprinkled in the kernel. The assumption here is such special cases are really paper'ing over another type of issue, so its best to ultimately try to root cause the issue in a more generalized fashion.
Well, it's rather bare metal that shows the buggy behavior, thus we need to paper over it. In that sense, it's other way round; we don't tune for VM. The VM check we're discussing is rather for skipping the strange workaround.
What is it exactly about a VM that enables this work around to be skipped? I don't quite get it yet.
VM -- at least the full one with the sound hardware emulation -- doesn't have the hardware bug. So, the check isn't needed.
Here's the issue, though: asking "am I in a VM" is not a good way to learn properties of hardware. Just off the top of my head, here are some types of VM and what they might imply about hardware:
Intel Kernel Guard: your sound card is passed through from real hardware.
Xen: could go either way. In dom0, it's likely passed through. In domU, it could be passed through or emulated, and I believe this is the case for all of the Xen variants.
KVM: Probably emulated, but could be passed through.
I'm not sure exactly why I was CC'd into this thread, but this is an important point -- even if you're running in a VM, you may actually have direct un-emulated IO access to a real (buggy) piece of hardware; in which case it sounds like you still need the work-around. So boot_cpu_has(X86_FEATURE_HYPERVISOR) is probably not the right check.
The VM check is kept there only to show a kernel message; in case where a similar issue is seen on another VM, user may notice more easily by that. The VM check itself doesn't change any kernel behavior any longer.
Takashi